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Why Mythbusters never debunked dowsing

It seems likely that both the boring and the pouring would happen after locating the water source.

But first I must think about this deeply for an extended time.
 
I posted this before on here on a previous dowsing thread, but first of all, I have to say that like the tests have proven, claims of special powers under controlled conditions, have alwaysbeen negative.

My boss back in 1983, commissioned a local dowser to find a water pipe in his front garden. I watched the process from the start as I was living in an apartment overlooking the garden. The task was to find where the pipe terminal was located. The dowser although he lived in the area, did not know this property personally. He used the coat hanger technique, and rather like an archaeologist using magnetic resonance devices, walked and tracked a route backwards and forwards progressively across the garden area. Every so often he plant a stick in the ground, and at the conclusion, there was a straight line of sticks running diagonally across the garden. A builder then excavated the area traced out by the sticks, and found a buried water pipe matching the direction of the track and followed it back until he found the termination. I was obviously impressed. The guy charged my boss £25 for the job, and he was delighted. When I first posted this on here quite a few years ago now, there was much sceptical comment, most of which I had to agree with. Is this proof of special powers? Perhaps not, but whatever the cause of the result, the guy got paid, and my boss was quite happy to pay it.
 
Explorer said:
I posted this before on here on a previous dowsing thread, but first of all, I have to say that like the tests have proven, claims of special powers under controlled conditions, have alwaysbeen negative.

My boss back in 1983, commissioned a local dowser to find a water pipe in his front garden. I watched the process from the start as I was living in an apartment overlooking the garden. The task was to find where the pipe terminal was located. The dowser although he lived in the area, did not know this property personally. He used the coat hanger technique, and rather like an archaeologist using magnetic resonance devices, walked and tracked a route backwards and forwards progressively across the garden area. Every so often he plant a stick in the ground, and at the conclusion, there was a straight line of sticks running diagonally across the garden. A builder then excavated the area traced out by the sticks, and found a buried water pipe matching the direction of the track and followed it back until he found the termination. I was obviously impressed. The guy charged my boss £25 for the job, and he was delighted. When I first posted this on here quite a few years ago now, there was much sceptical comment, most of which I had to agree with. Is this proof of special powers? Perhaps not, but whatever the cause of the result, the guy got paid, and my boss was quite happy to pay it.
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He probably looked at the planning records for the area.
 
The people who lay pipes don't choose their routes at random, there are reasons why they lay them where they do. There may also be clues in the ground which a dowser can pick up on, not necessarily consciously.

In a properly conducted blind test, no dowser has ever done better than chance. Until one does, there's no need to look for an explanation of occasional successes other than intelligent guesswork and luck.
 
I'm with Pixel42, probably wasn't even necessary to look up any records. I can tell you exactly where my water pipes are because I know where the meter is and I know where they come into the house. I can also tell you where and how deep the sewer is. No coat hangers needed.
 
I thought that perhaps there were subtle clues in the vegetation that showed where the soil had been disturbed, perhaps more compressed.
 
ahhell said:
Why'd he even answer the question, who cares? The show was always more entertainment than some sort of documentary, what would explode if they did a bit on dowsing. Would have been out of character if for the show if you ask me.
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This. The myths were 'write-ins' that the Mythbusters team had to test by trying it themselves with their own equipment, not by the person making the claim. And the 'myths' always involved some effect that was scientifically 'plausible', at least on the surface. I don't remember them testing any 'myth' that involved psychic powers or nonscientific principles - which makes sense because to make the show interesting they wanted things that had a non-zero chance of being confirmed.

One epside I remember well was when they tested the saying 'going down like a lead balloon', which Adam Savage says was a really important myth for him. The idea was to see whether a balloon made of lead could in fact float, if it was made light enough. This is theoretically possible but very difficult to achieve in practice - and they did it! The trick was to make it large enough to be able to use lead sheet of a practical thickness. They did the calculations and figured it would have to be severel meters in diameter, and would require using the thinnest lead foil available anywhere in the world.

Their goal generally wasn't to debunk a myth, but to give it every possible chance of success. How would this be applied to dowsing? "We found water 5 out of 10 ten times, but statistics say that's no better than chance."? IMO it would make for a pretty boring episide - unless they could find an excuse to shoot a high-powered rifle or blow something up.
 
The comments re my witnessing a dowsing scenario are largely the same as they were when I posted this on here a few years ago. They were about pre-knowledge of the water pipe track from existing records, which of course my boss could have looked up for himself prior to commissioning a dowser, so I don't think that is a very convincing explanation. I watched the guy do the job and he didn't for example have any notes in his hand at the time, or looking down at anything apart from the crossing of the coat hangers, then stopping to plant the sticks in the ground. It didn't actually take very long, it must have been around 10 to 15 minutes. There is no "proof" available either way, so personally it has to be recorded as "interesting", but no more than that, but I thought I would post it again to see if any new alternatives cropped up.
 
Explorer said:
The comments re my witnessing a dowsing scenario are largely the same as they were when I posted this on here a few years ago. They were about pre-knowledge of the water pipe track from existing records, which of course my boss could have looked up for himself prior to commissioning a dowser, so I don't think that is a very convincing explanation.
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That isn't the only explanation that has been suggested this time, and I very much doubt it was the only one offered the last time you posted it either. I'd also be surprised if the ideomotor effect, and how it can be influenced by the fact that the subconscious mind picks up and processes much more information than is ever brought to the attention of the conscious mind, wasn't mentioned.
Explorer said:
I watched the guy do the job and he didn't for example have any notes in his hand at the time, or looking down at anything apart from the crossing of the coat hangers, then stopping to plant the sticks in the ground. It didn't actually take very long, it must have been around 10 to 15 minutes. There is no "proof" available either way, so personally it has to be recorded as "interesting", but no more than that, but I thought I would post it again to see if any new alternatives cropped up.
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There's no need for new alternatives when the old ones are perfectly adequate. The only thing that would make your anecdote interesting would be if the dowser in question had at any time taken and passed a blind test.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
I don't remember them testing any 'myth' that involved psychic powers or nonscientific principles - which makes sense because to make the show interesting they wanted things that had a non-zero chance of being confirmed.
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They once tested if plants would grow better if you loved them or hated them, but gave them the exact same treatment. The plants didn’t care.
 
Pixel42 said:
That isn't the only explanation that has been suggested this time, and I very much doubt it was the only one offered the last time you posted it either. I'd also be surprised if the ideomotor effect, and how it can be influenced by the fact that the subconscious mind picks up and processes much more information than is ever brought to the attention of the conscious mind, wasn't mentioned.

There's no need for new alternatives when the old ones are perfectly adequate. The only thing that would make your anecdote interesting would be if the dowser in question had at any time taken and passed a blind test.
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Well I have to disagree that the old ones (you didn't say which) are adequate, when they are not, as they can always have caveats attached to them, like the one I suggested for pre-knowledge. The right answer is there, it's just that it is elusive, and so, as I indicated we have to leave it there. My own view for the record and for what it's worth, is that it was a lucky guess as to the tracking of the pipe. I would add, that I didn't see the size of the excavations and how close to the stick line they were where they found the pipe itself, so if the trench had been quite wide, that could help with the luck element. I find my explanation far more credible and convincing than the pre-knowledge, or any ideometer explanation.
 
Explorer said:
Well I have to disagree that the old ones (you didn't say which) are adequate, when they are not, as they can always have caveats attached to them, like the one I suggested for pre-knowledge. The right answer is there, it's just that it is elusive, and so, as I indicated we have to leave it there. My own view for the record and for what it's worth, is that it was a lucky guess as to the tracking of the pipe. I would add, that I didn't see the size of the excavations and how close to the stick line they were where they found the pipe itself, so if the trench had been quite wide, that could help with the luck element. I find my explanation far more credible and convincing than the pre-knowledge, or any ideometer explanation.
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So what caused the dowsing device to twitch/move? It can't have been electromagnetic or gravity (we know how to test for these and how indeed to use them to find stuff underground) the only forces that can interact with the device are from the person holding the device, so if it isn't "ideometric" then it has to be a "conscious" decision of the dowser to use force to move the device. Do you hold that dowsers are knowingly moving their device?
 
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