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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Manger Douse said:
They're traditionally reserved for women because men rape women overwhelmingly more than women rape other women
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Even in a world completely free of sexualized violence, we'd still have psychosocial concerns about modesty which arise in most human societies and may not be eradicable until we've witnessed enough global warming to renormalize nudity, by which time locker rooms won't matter so much.
 
d4m10n said:
Even in a world completely free of sexualized violence, we'd still have psychosocial concerns about modesty which arise in most human societies and may not be eradicable until we've witnessed enough global warming to renormalize nudity, by which time locker rooms won't matter so much.
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I think those concerns about modesty stem from fears of sexual violence
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
Have you looked at the history of public toilets at all? Or just made up history to suit your prejudices?

www.livescience.com

The Weird History of Gender-Segregated Bathrooms

Gender-segregated bathrooms originally arose to allow women to travel more widely in public spaces.
www.livescience.com www.livescience.com
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From your source:

"Bathroom bills like North Carolina's often reflect ideas about sex and safety, Cavanagh said. However, there are
no documented instances of a transgender person attacking anyone in a public bathroom, she said."

Many posters here will not be surprised to learn that this claim is false. Here's just one documented instance. It is not the only one.
www.foxnews.com

Transgender Wyoming woman convicted of sexually assaulting 10-year-old girl in bathroom

A transgender Wyoming woman was convicted Thursday of sexually assaulting a 10-year-old girl inside a bathroom.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com
But then, if you were expecting factual accuracy from an academic who writes papers unironically with titles like "Queering Bathrooms: Gender, Sexuality, and the Hygienic Imagination", you may indeed be taken by surprise.
 
Manger Douse said:
I think those concerns about modesty stem from fears of sexual violence
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Not exclusively, or even mainly. I'm pretty unconcerned about the possibility of sexual violence, but I'll give the "gender-neutral" facilities a body-swerve every time, and smartly vacate the Ladies if a man in a frock comes in. Because modesty and dignity. And (as I found when it actually happened) the body-swerving of the gender-neutral facilities happens instinctively even when the man coming out is a good friend of mine who has actually stayed overnight in my house, at a house-party.
 
Ziggurat said:
From your source:

"Bathroom bills like North Carolina's often reflect ideas about sex and safety, Cavanagh said. However, there are
no documented instances of a transgender person attacking anyone in a public bathroom, she said."

Many posters here will not be surprised to learn that this claim is false. Here's just one documented instance. It is not the only one.
www.foxnews.com

Transgender Wyoming woman convicted of sexually assaulting 10-year-old girl in bathroom

A transgender Wyoming woman was convicted Thursday of sexually assaulting a 10-year-old girl inside a bathroom.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com
But then, if you were expecting factual accuracy from an academic who writes papers unironically with titles like "Queering Bathrooms: Gender, Sexuality, and the Hygienic Imagination", you may indeed be taken by surprise.
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We did mention Lennon "Katie" Dolatowski, raped a 12-year-old (I think that was the age) in the Ladies in a supermarket, when he himself was only 18. And six feet five tall. (Maybe the sexual assault was when he was 18, but he was older when he actually carried out the rape. He has multuple convictions.) And women were still expected not to complain when he got sent to a women's jail.

There is indeed a Twitter thread that documents a large number of such cases. But hey, it's just some Twitter thread, it can be dismissed. No point even looking for it.
 
Manger Douse said:
I think those concerns about modesty stem from fears of sexual violence
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I think that's certainly a large part of it. I don't know how that ranks with the desire to not be objectified and looked at as a piece of meat.

I've been sexually assaulted, subject to an attempted rape. It sucked, and it definitely has impacted what sorts of situations I am willing to go into, how much I drink if I'm not there with a trusted group, what streets I'll walk down at night, what I wear to crowded venues (okay, not that because I simply don't do crowded any more), etc.

But there's another layer that I think almost all females have experienced, pretty much from the time we first start growing breasts. It's uncomfortable and intimidating to have males stare at your body in a way that makes it clear they're thinking sexual thoughts... and further for them to behave as if they think it's perfectly fine for them to be perusing you as if they're contemplating buying a new car and are thinking what options they like. There's an element of being viewed as an object whose primary role is to provide titillation and pleasure to males.

It's not all males, it's not even most males... but it's a LOT. And at the end of the day, those single-sex spaces are the only places outside of the confines of our own homes where we can escape from feeling like a rabbit being watched by a slavering wolf.
 
I wonder how many different gambits Ivor will try, other than explaining why men should be entitled to women's spaces simply because they say they want it.

I wonder if he is even aware that's what he's up against.

I predict his next gambit will be along the lines of only misandrist women are afraid of men like that.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I think that's certainly a large part of it. I don't know how that ranks with the desire to not be objectified and looked at as a piece of meat.

I've been sexually assaulted, subject to an attempted rape. It sucked, and it definitely has impacted what sorts of situations I am willing to go into, how much I drink if I'm not there with a trusted group, what streets I'll walk down at night, what I wear to crowded venues (okay, not that because I simply don't do crowded any more), etc.

But there's another layer that I think almost all females have experienced, pretty much from the time we first start growing breasts. It's uncomfortable and intimidating to have males stare at your body in a way that makes it clear they're thinking sexual thoughts... and further for them to behave as if they think it's perfectly fine for them to be perusing you as if they're contemplating buying a new car and are thinking what options they like. There's an element of being viewed as an object whose primary role is to provide titillation and pleasure to males.

It's not all males, it's not even most males... but it's a LOT. And at the end of the day, those single-sex spaces are the only places outside of the confines of our own homes where we can escape from feeling like a rabbit being watched by a slavering wolf.
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All my life I've had a bit of an invincibility complex about sexual assault. Yes it has happened to me, but I didn't expect it and I wasn't trying to avoid it. (Once was in a cinema when the dirty old man trying to put his hand up my school skirt stopped when I firmly tucked said skirt around my knees, and once was by a doctor in hospital who performed an unneccessary breast examination without asking permission. Neither time was I physically injured, just embarrassed.) I don't actually go around taking precautions in case some stranger jumps me. Maybe I should, but there you go. It's not something that even crosses my mind.

I do not want any males in my toilets, bathrooms, showers, changing rooms, dormitories or tents. It has nothing to do with fear and everything to do with modesty, dignity, and comfort.
 
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I would say that given the documented track record of men in dresses, they're the last sort of men who should be allowed anywhere near women's safe spaces. The very desire to be there proves they should absolutely NOT be there.
 
Manger Douse said:
From your own link:

"This lack of female facilities reflected a notable attitude about women: that they should stay home. This "urinary leash" remains a problem in some developing nations,"
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When I worked at GCHQ in the seventies male colleagues assured me that it was perfectly reasonable that the job of Radio Officer should be restricted to men, because the remote listening stations at which some of them worked didn't have any female toilets.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
What's your position on trans men in the women's toilet? E.g., what if they were wearing really good "manface" but needed to use the tampon machine?
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They are probably going to be very uncomfortable about it. Is there a reason you brought this up?
 
I'm quite sure @Ivor the Engineer would be perfectly happy for these three great examples of "womanhood" to be let loose in the women's toilets with his teenage daughters inside.

TGW1A.jpg


Or these


www.theguardian.com

Karen White: how 'manipulative' transgender inmate attacked again

Former neighbours describe 52-year-old as volatile and violent amid questions over placement in all-female prison
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

www.bbc.com

Fugitive sex offender caught after Crimewatch appeal

Sex offender Lisa Hauxwell was tracked down after dozens of responses to the television appeal.
www.bbc.com
 
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And since we finally have a clear photo of Lennon "Katie" Dolatowski, I'll just post it again. Lest we forget.

1732611782555.jpeg
It's interesting that it took so long for that photo to surface. For a long time the only photo available was one which was so heavily filtered he looked like a sweet little dormouse, complete with ears and little beady nose. He looked female and the impression given was that he was tiny. It was pure artwork, nothing like him at all. That, combined with the name "Katie" and the constant use of feminine pronouns, gave an entirely false impression. Some newspapers still use that photo.

It seemed impossible to get a true likeness of him, and the police never issued a picture. (It's possible this is such a picture, very belatedly.) When a snatched picture did appear of him leaving court, it was absolutely shocking. He was a huge hulking man, six feet five, towering over the female police officer he was handcuffed to. Long black hair hid part of his face but what could be seen was unmistakably masculine. He was on his way to a women's prison. Obviously.

In such a way are the perceptions of the public manipulated to perpetuate the myth of the sweet harmless feminine-looking marginalised oppressed trans person. Even when he's a child rapist.

ETA: here's the dormouse picture.

1732612786050.jpeg

And here's the one of him leaving court.

1732612893466.jpeg
 
I suppose this will be dismissed as a fake picture too. Or else we'll be told it's absolutely right and anti-discriminatory. Sometimes it's hard to keep up.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1861303633322647653

Anyway, today's the day when a court convenes in Scotland to determine the question implicit in the thread title. The Scottish government says a woman is an adult human female and any adult human male who has paid them a fiver for a certificate. A bunch of furious women beg leave to differ.
 
Rolfe said:
I suppose this will be dismissed as a fake picture too.
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Enbies have entered the chat.

ETA: Trans women actually want to be accepted as women and thereby admitted to women-only spaces, so I'm guessing this little patch of activism was brought to you by the young folks who prefer to be known as they/them, even if they look pretty femme.
 
Most trans-identifying men, as far as I can see, want to compel women to "accept" them and tolerate them in women-only spaces, with no care whatsoever for women who may be made very uncomfortable by their presence, or indeed self-exclude as a result of what should have been a woman-only space being mixed sex. The entitlement and aggressive demanding exhibited by these men is very far from being typical female behaviour.

God only knows what's behind that particular sticker, but I don't imagine whoever stuck it there was actually female.
 
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