Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

According to AI:

Yes, in the United States, it is illegal to have sex in front of a child.
I wouldn't trust AI on anything. Using it as a cite destroys your credibility. Couldn't you find a reliable and verifiable source?

One thing I do know is that in the US, laws attempting to prevent children from accessing online porn have generally been struck down as unconstitutional or unworkable. The most common objection seems to be that parents should have the right to decide for themselves how to handle it, which seems fair to me. After all, parents are allowed to fill their kids' minds up with the most appalling garbage, including sex and violence, just by letting them read the Bible!

BTW I have to apologize for my last accusation. Turns out the forum search doesn't work on older posts, so it might well have been that you did rail against the demon drink and I wouldn't have known about it. Highly embarrassing - and another example of how we have become too trusting of modern software (not just AI).
 
Christianity, that's why. Organised religion in general. Make people feel guilty about perfectly normal things, create a monopoly on the way to expiate this "sin", and you can control them.
It's perfectly normal to show a 9 year old a porn gang bang? You are actually getting what you advocate CY - children of that age are seeing such material.

It's astonishing that we have reached this level of depravity.
 
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It's perfectly normal to show a 9 year old a porn gang bang? You are actually getting what you advocate CY - children of that age are seeing such material.

It's astonishing that we have reached this level of depravity.
That's simply a disgusting and illogical accusation to make. I thought you were at least discussing this matter in good faith, it is obvious now that you aren't.
 
That's simply a disgusting and illogical accusation to make. I thought you were at least discussing this matter in good faith, it is obvious now that you aren't.
If I am wrong then I will apologize to CY. I am trying to discuss this matter in good faith.

I re-read CY's response to my post but I fail to see any other conclusion. Why is it illogical Darat?
 
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That's simply a disgusting and illogical accusation to make. I thought you were at least discussing this matter in good faith, it is obvious now that you aren't.
It is not disgusting or illogical to re-state as fact that adult society is de facto showing porn to children including 9 year olds.
 
Are you saying the UK is wrong to make it illegal? Doing it can result in 1-3 years in custody.

You did not answer any of my questions

I sometimes swim in ice cold water outdoors in wintertime. By your own reasoning ("If you would not [do a certain thing], then you are or should be against [a certain similar thing]," one of these should be true: (1) you swim in cold water yourself, or (2) you're opposed or should be opposed to my doing so, or (3) the logic you're arguing for why people are or should be against visible sex doesn't apply to other things.

If it's the first, please tell me about your most recent plunge. Perhaps we can do one on the same agreed upon day (or even get together for one, but that's probably not practical) this coming winter.

If it's the second, I object to your opposition and your advocacy of opposition to the practice of polar swimming as an unjustified inhibition of my freedom on the inadequate basis of your own personal aesthetic preferences.

If it's the third, that's special pleading, an invalid form of argument.
 
You did not answer any of my questions

I sometimes swim in ice cold water outdoors in wintertime. By your own reasoning ("If you would not [do a certain thing], then you are or should be against [a certain similar thing]," one of these should be true: (1) you swim in cold water yourself, or (2) you're opposed or should be opposed to my doing so, or (3) the logic you're arguing for why people are or should be against visible sex doesn't apply to other things.

If it's the first, please tell me about your most recent plunge. Perhaps we can do one on the same agreed upon day (or even get together for one, but that's probably not practical) this coming winter.

If it's the second, I object to your opposition and your advocacy of opposition to the practice of polar swimming as an unjustified inhibition of my freedom on the inadequate basis of your own personal aesthetic preferences.

If it's the third, that's special pleading, an invalid form of argument.
You are comparing the illegal with legal? In the UK it is illegal to have sex in front of a child. In the US it is illegal to show porn to a child thus the real thing would be proscribed too.
 
I wouldn't trust AI on anything. Using it as a cite destroys your credibility. Couldn't you find a reliable and verifiable source?
The United States Department of Justice 'strictly prohibits the distribution of obscene matter to minors'.
One thing I do know is that in the US, laws attempting to prevent children from accessing online porn have generally been struck down as unconstitutional or unworkable. The most common objection seems to be that parents should have the right to decide for themselves how to handle it, which seems fair to me. After all, parents are allowed to fill their kids' minds up with the most appalling garbage, including sex and violence, just by letting them read the Bible!
Millions of children around the world are watching porn and parents are either unable or remiss in making sure this doesn't happen.
BTW I have to apologize for my last accusation. Turns out the forum search doesn't work on older posts, so it might well have been that you did rail against the demon drink and I wouldn't have known about it. Highly embarrassing - and another example of how we have become too trusting of modern software (not just AI).
I replied to your alcohol post - perhaps you missed it.
 
It was Vera Baird who made the 'effectively decriminalized' assertion regarding rape.
Again, so what? You're the one posting it here, not her. So you have to back it up. You can't rely on her authority to justify the claim.
 
You are comparing the illegal with legal? In the UK it is illegal to have sex in front of a child. In the US it is illegal to show porn to a child thus the real thing would be proscribed too.

The problem is solved, then. The law you're in favor of making displaying porn to a child illegal already exists. At least in the US. Is it just the UK you're concerned about?

Or will you now start another thread arguing that we should outlaw breaking and entering?
 
Again, so what? You're the one posting it here, not her. So you have to back it up. You can't rely on her authority to justify the claim.
I also cited studies from the US and Europe with similar results - but you are right - no figure is beyond doubt.

What studies show that such figures are way off?
 
The problem is solved, then. The law you're in favor of making displaying porn to a child illegal already exists. At least in the US. Is it just the UK you're concerned about?

Or will you now start another thread arguing that we should outlaw breaking and entering?
No the problem is not solved. Society is still showing porn to kids. No responsible adult would have sex such that a child could see and hear them...so why are they shrugging at porn?
 
I also cited studies from the US and Europe with similar results - but you are right - no figure is beyond doubt.

What studies show that such figures are way off?
I'm not arguing that the figures for conviction rates are way off. I'm saying that the conclusions you're drawing from that are suspect. But even more importantly, since this thread isn't really about low conviction rates but about the relationship between porn and rape, that low conviction rate tells us nothing about that relationship.
 
Ensuring children don't stumble on this stuff isn't happening.
(...)
Sure we should be proscribing porn.

Well, proscribing porn isn't happening either, is it?

There's two things not happening, and we might try to make either happen --- or neither, or both --- in order to counteract the ill effects of porn as we see it.

I say we focus on the first thing, which in fact is, like I'd spelled out, three measures, in no particular order: one, focus on the safety of the actors; two, educate people in general, and children in particular, that porn is fiction, the same as movie stars fighting five men and coming out unscathed, or jumping from buildings and standing up unhurt, and that fiction is different than reality; and three, take steps to ensure, as best we can, that porn stays out of the reach of children.

You don't seem to agree. Instead, you insist on wanting to proscribe porn. Which I disagree with, as a matter of principle. It is draconian. It is puritanical nonsense. It is imposing one man's tastes, one man's prudery, on the rest of society. It is insupportable. I don't support your cause.

And, like I said, your objection that keeping porn away from children "isn't happening", applies just as much to proscribing porn as well. Banning porn "isn't happening" either.

The idea is to suggest, and if one cares enough then to advocate for, trying to make something happen that isn't at present happening. As best we can, even if not perfectly. I say we do that for the three measures I suggested above. And not to your idea, that we proscribe porn.


... It's fiction? Comparing it with stars jumping out of buildings isn't like for like. Porn actors are having real sex...

Haha, no, it is fiction.

It is fiction if you read about someone fighting five men and beating them, unarmed. It is fiction if you see an actor do that on screen, an actor who doesn't know the first thing about fighting. And it is fiction if you see a martial artist who might actually be able to pull off fighting five men single-handed, perform that role on screen --- and it's fiction even if they enacted it like the early Hong Kong movies, with a tad more realism in the performance of it than strictly necessary.

Likewise, it is fiction if there's ...physical intimacy, described in a book; and it is fiction if such is shown on screen by actors through symbolism; and it is fiction if it is shown by actors simulating the act; and it is fiction if it is done by actors actually going at it in graphical detail. It's all fiction. It's a performance, not reality.

Maybe that's what's so offputting to you about porn. That you seem to view it as reality --- as opposed to fiction, and to be enjoyed as fiction (or not, depending on one's tastes).
 
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Maybe that's what's so offputting to you about porn. That you seem to view it as reality --- as opposed to fiction, and to be enjoyed as fiction (or not, depending on one's tastes).
I'm going to have to take Poem's side here. In a porn, when a man penetrates a woman and ejaculates inside her, that's actual sex. It's often not realistic (in the sense that how they do it isn't how most people do it), but that doesn't mean it isn't real (as in, he actually penetrated her and actually ejaculated inside her). Actors do simulated sex for a lot of movies and TV where they make it look like penetration happened when it didn't, but in porn, that generally does happen. So Poem is right, it is real sex. There is frequently a lot of fiction surrounding the sex in porn (he isn't really a plumber, she isn't really married, they don't actually enjoy it that much, etc), but that doesn't make the sex itself not actually sex.
 
I'm going to have to take Poem's side here. In a porn, when a man penetrates a woman and ejaculates inside her, that's actual sex. It's often not realistic (in the sense that how they do it isn't how most people do it), but that doesn't mean it isn't real (as in, he actually penetrated her and actually ejaculated inside her). Actors do simulated sex for a lot of movies and TV where they make it look like penetration happened when it didn't, but in porn, that generally does happen. So Poem is right, it is real sex. There is frequently a lot of fiction surrounding the sex in porn (he isn't really a plumber, she isn't really married, they don't actually enjoy it that much, etc), but that doesn't make the sex itself not actually sex.

Nah, I'm going to disagree.

Those two examples, film actors jumping from tall buildings, and film actors fighting five men single-handed. It is acting, and fiction, if an actor simply simulates doing those things. And it is just as much acting, and fiction, if an actor (or their stunt double) were to actually perform those stunts themselves. It's still fiction.

eta: Likewise, it's fiction if there's physical intimacy shown via symbolism. It's just as much fiction if it's shown by actors simulating the act. And it's just as much fiction if it is shown by actors actually doing the deed.
 
Nah, I'm going to disagree.

Those two examples, film actors jumping from tall buildings, and film actors fighting five men single-handed. It is acting, and fiction, if an actor simply simulates doing those things.
If the actor actually jumps from a tall building with no safety wires and no hidden cushion at the bottom, then the jump isn't fiction. But that's generally not how movies do jumps from tall buildings. Generally they use safety mechanisms that the audience doesn't see. It's the difference between what the audience is shown and what actually happened that makes such a jump fiction. Same with a typical movie fight: it's fiction if they aren't actually hurting each other, because what is depicted isn't what actually happened. In contrast, a lot of the stuff that happened in the Jackass movie wasn't fiction. It actually happened the way it was shown. If a actor is running down the street, no tricks of special effects or editing, the running isn't fiction, even if it's used in a story that is fictitious. If what's being portrayed is what actually happened, that's not fiction.

And in porn, what they portray in terms of the sex is what actually happened. It's not fiction.
It's just as much fiction if it's shown by actors simulating the act. And it's just as much fiction if it is shown by actors actually doing the deed.
This is frankly a retarded definition of fiction. If what's shown is what actually happened, then it is not fiction.
 

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