Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

Poem said:
And you clearly think that the normalization of porn is no big deal - but do correct me if I am wrong.
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I never said that either.

But you are claiming specific harm that you haven't demonstrated. And you seem to want remedies that you haven't really detailed or demonstrated would be efficacious.
Poem said:
Where does it say the VPN ban has been efficacious?
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What would it mean if they aren't?

You seem to be arguing that attempts to stop internet porn don't work. But you also seem to want to try to stop internet porn. These are contradictory arguments.
 
Poem said:
How would you describe a conviction rate of < 2%?

Adequate? Good? Excellent? Disgraceful?
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It depends on a lot of factors. Perhaps one of the words you choose. Not, however, decriminalised. As I say, you're indulging in hyperbole and it doesn't help your case.
 
3point14 said:
It depends on a lot of factors. Perhaps one of the words you choose. Not, however, decriminalised. As I say, you're indulging in hyperbole and it doesn't help your case.
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I'm merely quoting the UK's then Victims Commissioner.

I'll ask again - how do you rate < 2%?
 
Poem said:
Is the porn saturation status quo a big deal or not?

Great? Bad? Out of control?
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I think it's harmful. Not sure about "big deal" because that's too subjective a term and I have no confidence that your definition of "big deal" matches mine.

But you've been asserting rather specific sorts of harm that you haven't supported. The evidence you've presented so far to show that specific harm has fallen apart under scrutiny. And it's your thread, not mine. So you tell me: what harm do you think porn is doing? What do you propose to do about that harm? And why do you think that action will help?
 
Poem said:
I'm merely quoting the UK's then Victims Commissioner.

I'll ask again - how do you rate < 2%?
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2% of what?

2% of the total estimate of rapes, whether or not an allegation is raised? That would be nonsense.

2% of rape allegations? That might actually be reasonable number.

2% of rape allegations that have enough evidence to get a conviction if brought to trial? That would be a huge problem.
 
Poem said:
Where does it say the VPN ban has been efficacious?
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is a ban more efficacious than no ban?

And if you think a ban isn't efficacious, what do you expect UK lawmakers to do?

You are admitting that you just want to complain and are not interested in solutions whatsoever.
 
Ziggurat said:
I think it's harmful. Not sure about "big deal" because that's too subjective a term and I have no confidence that your definition of "big deal" matches mine.

But you've been asserting rather specific sorts of harm that you haven't supported. The evidence you've presented so far to show that specific harm has fallen apart under scrutiny. And it's your thread, not mine. So you tell me: what harm do you think porn is doing? What do you propose to do about that harm? And why do you think that action will help?
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The 90% figure fell apart. You think it's harmful based on what?
 
The Great Zaganza said:
is a ban more efficacious than no ban?

And if you think a ban isn't efficacious, what do you expect UK lawmakers to do?

You are admitting that you just want to complain and are not interested in solutions whatsoever.
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My point was that it is not clear that countries that are anti-porn are effectively curbing it but you are suggesting that sex crimes are still prevalent in countries where porn has been banned. I'm not clear that's been established.

No, I want solutions - but if there is no will from society to tackle the problems - not least the harms to children ("severe harms") then, no, nothing will be done for sure.

Let's stop pretending that society as a whole really cares about keeping children safe on this issue.
 
Poem said:
The 90% figure fell apart. You think it's harmful based on what?
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Based on my understanding of human nature. But I could be wrong. Moreover, I think a lot of the proposals to do something about the harm that porn does are worse than the problems porn creates. See prohibition for an example of that dynamic.
Poem said:
My point was that it is not clear that countries that are anti-porn are effectively curbing it but you are suggesting that sex crimes are still prevalent in countries where porn has been banned. I'm not clear that's been established.
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OK. But again, if banning it doesn't really stop it and the harm it does, then that suggests bans don't work. So what exactly are you advocating?
Poem said:
No, I want solutions
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What solutions? Magic fairy dust? Seriously, what is it that you want?
 
Ziggurat said:
Based on my understanding of human nature. But I could be wrong. Moreover, I think a lot of the proposals to do something about the harm that porn does are worse than the problems porn creates. See prohibition for an example of that dynamic.
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Could you elaborate a bit on your 'understanding of human nature'? I'm genuinely interested.
Ziggurat said:
OK. But again, if banning it doesn't really stop it and the harm it does, then that suggests bans don't work. So what exactly are you advocating?

What solutions? Magic fairy dust? Seriously, what is it that you want?
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This, for me, takes us back to slavery. It was banned but hasn't stopped it....but we still feel better as a society for having done so. More needs to be done - but we did the right thing.

Here's a straightforward question (and I acknowledge it's inappropriateness outside this thread): Would you have sex knowing that a child could see and hear you?
 
theprestige said:
2% of what?

2% of the total estimate of rapes, whether or not an allegation is raised? That would be nonsense.

2% of rape allegations? That might actually be reasonable number.

2% of rape allegations that have enough evidence to get a conviction if brought to trial? That would be a huge problem.
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"In England and Wales, more than 99% of rapes reported to police do not end in a conviction. This is the result of a criminal justice system that makes prosecuting rape extremely rare, lengthy and difficult." (City University of London).

"Research for the Home Office suggests that only 4% of cases of sexual violence reported to the UK police are found or suspected to be false. Studies carried out in Europe and in the US indicate rates of between 2% and 6%."
 
theprestige said:
2% of rape allegations? That might actually be reasonable number.
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From the City University of London page (my emphasis):

"Rape investigations are complex, and without specialist knowledge about sexual offending behaviour and how it affects victims, there is room for rape myths to influence cases. These myths include the mistaken belief that false allegations are common, that “genuine” victims will report a rape to police without delay, and will provide a detailed, consistent account of the rape."
 
Poem said:
What would help? It's 2% of reported rapes.
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I'm really not interested in that debate. I simply don't have the information to contribute anything meaningful. I was simply railing against your inaccurate 'decriminalised' comment.

I'm really not interested in debating rape conviction rates which, I admit, are low. Probably due to the whole 'presumption of innocence' thing.
 
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