Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Louden Wilde said:
We've been over this topic many times in this thread(s). Yes, it's been demonstrated that males have physical advantages over females and that trans-identifying males (i.e. transgirls or transwomen) retain these advantages even after several years of estrogen administration due to the effects of male development that can't be erased. Also, adding males of any kind to female sports makes them not female sports anymore. What women/girls are fighting back against is that someone's self-image trumps physical reality and the notion that it's not their decision to have their own spaces and activities.

Also please think about how categories work - namely it doesn't matter if a few women could you beat you up- you (& other males) don't belong in the women's categories of an MMA competition.

NYT also has an article on Moulton speaking up - in it, they note:

About two-thirds of Americans say transgender athletes should be allowed to play only on teams that match their sex at birth, according to a Gallup poll conducted last year.
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So how do you draw the line? What criteria do you use? What about 'true' hermaphrodites, or people with rare DSDs, do you do a massive investigation into their complete medical history from birth? Don't get me wrong, I don't think men should compete in women's sports, I'm just wondering how you police that. The Khelif case obviously highlighted that issue. There were plenty of people speculating on her 'DSD' but it was a lot of speculation, some of it rather questionable.
 
smartcooky said:
Indeed. stanfr appears to have adopted the TRA argument - there is no reason to shut the stable door shut unless less there is evidence the horse will bolt if its left open.

Invoking the words of George Mallory..... "I do not need to see the mountain to know that it is there."
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Yadda Yadda, yeah im the TRA guy ROFL...and you're the Trumpist saying "they're eating your pets!! I know cause I heard it on social media!"
 
Pixel42 said:
The question I keep coming back to is: why are the feelings of a tiny percentage of males, when asked to use the sex segregated spaces reserved for their sex rather than their self identified gender, more important than the feelings of any and all females (many of whom have been the victims of male violence) when asked to share the women's showers with males?
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Again, I aint a woman--so I can't say how I would feel if I were--but I have numerous female friends and family members, some of who'm have been the victims of male violence, who do not agree with you. So your "any and all" statement is patently false. They do not couch the argument in terms of "sharing the women's showers with males" When they encounter this 'tiny percentage of makes' in practice, they just go about doing whatever it is they are doing. I'm open-minded about it though--I'm not dismissing your question, just find it puzzling because it is contrary to my experience with many (mainly progressive) women.
 
stanfr said:
So how do you draw the line? What criteria do you use? What about 'true' hermaphrodites, or people with rare DSDs, do you do a massive investigation into their complete medical history from birth? Don't get me wrong, I don't think men should compete in women's sports, I'm just wondering how you police that. The Khelif case obviously highlighted that issue. There were plenty of people speculating on her 'DSD' but it was a lot of speculation, some of it rather questionable.
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There is no such thing as a "true hermaphrodite" in homo sapiens. Everyone is either male or female. Sex observed at birth (or indeed in utero) by the usual method is correct in 99.98% of cases. The remaining 0.018% require specialised testing, which actually ought to be done as soon as possible for the welfare of the child.

This might help.

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And yes, if people in that 0.018% who have unambiguously male organs (internally) and have gone through male puberty insist on entering sporting events in the female classes, yes you damn well should be doing a massive investigation into their medical history. As is actually happening at the moment, but that is really something for the DSD thread.

If we were actually talking only about people with CAIS or ovotesticular syndrome or something like that, there would be very little controversy because these are rare conditions. However, we're not. We're talking about large numbers of grown-ass men insisting that they have lady feelz (how can they possibly know how it feels to be a woman?) and so should be allowed to compete against teenage girls and expose themselves in the changing rooms and showers.
 
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stanfr said:
So how do you draw the line? What criteria do you use? What about 'true' hermaphrodites, or people with rare DSDs, do you do a massive investigation into their complete medical history from birth? Don't get me wrong, I don't think men should compete in women's sports, I'm just wondering how you police that. The Khelif case obviously highlighted that issue. There were plenty of people speculating on her 'DSD' but it was a lot of speculation, some of it rather questionable.
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This really should be in the DSD thread - agreed Trans-activists have tried to conflate the two - though they did the opposite with the Khelif case.

The line gets drawn at male development - particularly puberty e.g. this recent article
We argue that eligibility criteria for female competition must consider male development rather than relying on current testosterone levels.

No, testing is not that difficult - greatly aided by the reduced cost of DNA sequencing.
 
smartcooky said:
I can tell you something you already know, but I'm making the point for lurkers, using your post

There are far more women (as in biological females) who have suffered violence at the hands of men (biological males) than all LGBTQ+ people combined, and massively more than the number of transgender people. I don't even have to quote any figures to confidently make an assertion that every one here reading this will know to be true. Anyone who claims they don't know its true, is being willfully blind!
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Agree--but here is an interesting stat, it is pretty clear that the young people are identifying more as LGBQT than in the past. Old surveys quoted 2-6% as Lesbian or Bi for women, Gen Z is now ~20%. This is not, in my opinion, due to some massive conspiracy to socially transition our youth, it is due to people feeling free to express who they are. And of course, this freedom is under attack.
 
stanfr said:
Again, I aint a woman--so I can't say how I would feel if I were--but I have numerous female friends and family members, some of who'm have been the victims of male violence, who do not agree with you. So your "any and all" statement is patently false. They do not couch the argument in terms of "sharing the women's showers with males" When they encounter this 'tiny percentage of makes' in practice, they just go about doing whatever it is they are doing. I'm open-minded about it though--I'm not dismissing your question, just find it puzzling because it is contrary to my experience with many (mainly progressive) women.
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There are women who - so far - have been OK with TW in their spaces. But consent is not transferrable.
 
stanfr said:
So how do you draw the line? What criteria do you use? What about 'true' hermaphrodites, or people with rare DSDs, do you do a massive investigation into their complete medical history from birth? Don't get me wrong, I don't think men should compete in women's sports, I'm just wondering how you police that. The Khelif case obviously highlighted that issue. There were plenty of people speculating on her 'DSD' but it was a lot of speculation, some of it rather questionable.
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The debate about trans rights in public policy would be very different, if it were actually about 'true' hermaphrodites trying to find their place in society.

But it's not. It's about misogynistic entitlements for autogynephiles, sex pests, and dysphoric narcissists, via fiat self-ID.
 
stanfr said:
Agree--but here is an interesting stat, it is pretty clear that the young people are identifying more as LGBQT than in the past. Old surveys quoted 2-6% as Lesbian or Bi for women, Gen Z is now ~20%. This is not, in my opinion, due to some massive conspiracy to socially transition our youth, it is due to people feeling free to express who they are. And of course, this freedom is under attack.
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This rise is interesting. I suspect it's multi-factorial. First problem - it conflates multiple groups - those who are strongly same-sex attracted (the LGB) with those who don't care for the stereotypes associated with their sex. With the latter I think the evidence for a social contagion element is strong, plus the co-morbidity with autism of those with strong gender dysphoria (that trans-activists acknowledge) is worrying. There also non-binary folks who are what some might refer to as "spicy straights". A lot of gender identity - excluding the same-sex attracted - is not functionally distinguishable from personality.
 
stanfr said:
I wonder whether the school will back up the actions of the counselor, whether they will support them or stay they were acting against school policy.
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Depends on the school district policy, of course.

Here is an example of a district policy which explicitly provides for social transition without parental notification:

Before communicating with parents of transgender or gender expansive students, it is important to ask the student how school employees should refer to the student when talking with their parents and guardians. For families who are supportive, using the student’s name and pronoun could be affirming for the student. For parents who are not supportive, or who are not aware of the student’s transition at school, referring to their name and pronoun could be very dangerous.​

It didn't take me much effort to find this example, so I'd be surprised if it is remotely unique.
 
We seem to be back to "there are rare cases where specialist investigation is needed to correctly ascertain a child's sex, therefore I, a genotypically and phenotypically normal male who has fathered several children, should be allowed to change and shower with teenage girls, and beat them (up) on the sports field."

I'm not seeing the logic, personally.
 
Rolfe said:
We seem to be back to "there are rare cases where specialist investigation is needed to correctly ascertain a child's sex, therefore I, a genotypically and phenotypically normal male who has fathered several children, should be allowed to change and shower with teenage girls, and beat them (up) on the sports field."

I'm not seeing the logic, personally.
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No, the logic is not there - but I think a lot of folks new to thinking about /discussing these issues haven't teased that out yet. They think of trans as a kind of DSD (and some activists encourage this, of course).
 
If you have a penis, testicles, prostate, you're a male.

If you have ovaries, vagina, uterus, fallopian tubes, you're a female.

The end.
 
Someone arriving to say "But what about people born without [insert any one of these organs]...?" any second now.

Yeah, because MRKH (a DSD of women which results in the uterus not developing) exists, a grown-ass man with no developmental anomaly who has fathered several children should obviously be allowed to expose himself to teenage girls in the shower after he's beaten them (up) on the pitch.
 
Rolfe said:
Someone arriving to say "But what about people born without [insert any one of these organs]...?" any second now.

Yeah, because MRKH (a DSD of women which results in the uterus not developing) exists, a grown-ass man with no developmental anomaly who has fathered several children should obviously be allowed to expose himself to teenage girls in the shower after he's beaten them (up) on the pitch.
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Clownfish can change gender. Ergo, sex isn't binary.
 
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