Merged Strict biological definitions of male/female

You -- and too many others -- are still trying to turn the sexes into identities -- "muh humanity! :rolleyes:" -- instead of recognizing that, biologically speaking at least, "male" and "female" are JUST labels for transitory reproductive abilities.

No. They are labels for biological categories associated with reproductive abilities. The category extends beyond the current reproductive ability. Everyone knows this except you.
 
Oxford, hey?

The Oxford English Dictionary says under "female"

"As a noun referring to humans female is often found in scientific or technical contexts, but when used outside of these it may suggest a condescending attitude, implying that women can be reduced to biological or reproductive characteristics."
 
No. They are labels for biological categories associated with reproductive abilities. The category extends beyond the current reproductive ability. Everyone knows this except you.


Yep - this definition has greater utility (than one limited to those only currently producing gametes) and is an important aspect to consider in understanding an organism's life history and current attributes.
 
Wrong



Yep, it is wrong and clear that Steersman didn't really read my post. I guess he's suggesting I'm not a "credible biologist" because I don't agree with him (nor the many colleagues I've had discussions w/ over the years). I guess he also didn't read the Endocrine Society Statement I linked to, which notes

"The classical biological definition of the 2 sexes is that females have ovaries and make larger female gametes (eggs), whereas males have testes and make smaller male gametes (sperm); the 2 gametes fertilize to form the zygote, which has the potential to become a new individual. The advantage of this simple definition is first that it can be applied universally to any species of sexually reproducing organism. Second, it is a bedrock concept of evolution, because selection of traits may differ in the 2 sexes. Thirdly, the definition can be extended to the ovaries and testes, and in this way the categories—female and male—can be applied also to individuals who have gonads but do not make gametes."
 
I glanced at the Griffiths paper and he gets it wrong at some critical points - it seems to be a fancier version of trans-activist arguments (some organisms switch sex, some have environmentally determined triggers to start the sex differentiation pathway). He even seems to admit this (My motive in writing this essay must, somehow, be to enforce my view of human diversity...) . Citing Roughgarden adds to this impression.

His words in italics:
Moreover, when biologists say there are two sexes in the human species this does not imply that every human being is one of those two sexes or that every human individual has a determinate biological sex.

In the case of humans and other mammals, it does (imply that every individual is one of the two) - because of our understanding of the development and genetics of sex determination in this group (and its being tied in with the urogenital system)

The biological definition of sex does not imply that there is any genetic or phenotypic character that is shared by all members of a sex in a species.

Yes, it does for the latter (shared phenotype): All females have organs/gonads that at some point in their life cycle will be capable of producing mature oocytes* (yes, barring deleterious mutation, accidents, or other insult - let's please don't go down this path).


* more precisely to aid primordial germ cells in differentiating to mature oocytes
 
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I glanced at the Griffiths paper and he gets it wrong at some critical points - it seems to be a fancier version of trans-activist arguments (some organisms switch sex, some have environmentally determined triggers to start the sex differentiation pathway). He even seems to admit this (My motive in writing this essay must, somehow, be to enforce my view of human diversity...) . Citing Roughgarden adds to this impression.

His words in italics:
Moreover, when biologists say there are two sexes in the human species this does not imply that every human being is one of those two sexes or that every human individual has a determinate biological sex.

In the case of humans and other mammals, it does (imply that every individual is one of the two) - because of our understanding of the development and genetics of sex determination in this group (and its being tied in with the urogenital system)

The biological definition of sex does not imply that there is any genetic or phenotypic character that is shared by all members of a sex in a species.

Yes, it does for the latter (shared phenotype): All females have organs/gonads that at some point in their life cycle will be capable of producing mature oocytes* (yes, barring deleterious mutation, accidents, or other insult - let's please don't go down this path).


* more precisely to aid primordial germ cells in differentiating to mature oocytes

You can be sure that Steersman's reply to this will NOT be any kind of considered argument, but rather, just more link-spamming to dictionary definitions, and the philosobabble of Griffith, Myers and Roughgarden - his favorite purveyors of pseudo-scientific claptrap!
 
You can be sure that Steersman's reply to this will NOT be any kind of considered argument, but rather, just more link-spamming to dictionary definitions, and the philosobabble of Griffith, Myers and Roughgarden - his favorite purveyors of pseudo-scientific claptrap!

Unfortunately likely :(

I'm curious as to whether there is a group of forum participants (e.g. those who participated in the Mt Holyoke-pronouns thread) who espouse sex as a spectrum, etc. - perhaps because they feel politically obligated to do so.
 
Unfortunately likely :(

I'm curious as to whether there is a group of forum participants (e.g. those who participated in the Mt Holyoke-pronouns thread) who espouse sex as a spectrum, etc. - perhaps because they feel politically obligated to do so.

Yes, there is. Or at least they say that sex is bimodal; not as a categorical variable with two modes containing almost all cases and a few outliers with DSDs, but as a continuous variable with two modes and nothing on the X axis. Not only that, but it is literal violence to suggest otherwise. As far as I can make out, this belief probably originates among skeptics who are devotees of Novella, Gorski and co. who produced this piece on the 'Science of Biological Sex' complete with the diagram of sex as a continuous bimodal variable.
 
Yes, there is. Or at least they say that sex is bimodal; not as a categorical variable with two modes containing almost all cases and a few outliers with DSDs, but as a continuous variable with two modes and nothing on the X axis. Not only that, but it is literal violence to suggest otherwise. As far as I can make out, this belief probably originates among skeptics who are devotees of Novella, Gorski and co. who produced this piece on the 'Science of Biological Sex' complete with the diagram of sex as a continuous bimodal variable.

I agree, but most of them don't post here anymore, probably because of the amount of blowback they got, as well as their inability to justify their positions. Frankly, I think most of them were embarrassed by those positions.

Just looking at one or two I know of, neither of them have been active in any of the "Transwomen are Women" thread forums for over six months, whereas previously, they advocated FOR the usual TRA line (that Transwomen ARE women and therefore should be allowed access to Female-only sports, spaces, prisons and spaces)
 
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You can be sure that Steersman's reply to this will NOT be any kind of considered argument, but rather, just more link-spamming to dictionary definitions, and the philosobabble of Griffith, Myers and Roughgarden - his favorite purveyors of pseudo-scientific claptrap!

Don't forget links and references to Steersman's own unscientific and non-credentialed opinions that they have posted elsewhere. Steersman really likes to reference themself as if they are an authority that should be heeded.
 
Don't forget links and references to Steersman's own unscientific and non-credentialed opinions that they have posted elsewhere. Steersman really likes to reference themself as if they are an authority that should be heeded.

Indeed!

I expect he will also include some tautological link-spamming to posts on his own Substack Account, which he uses to declare himself to be an authority on the subject.

In fact, Steersman's whole shtick is tautological... it boils down to "I'm right because I say I'm right"
 
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First, my apologies to many of the regulars for repeating a good bit of what I've said in other threads (& a good bit of what's been said in this thread). I was a research biologist for close to 30 years (about 23 years of that post PhD), and then transitioned to clinical genetics a bit over 5 years ago. My research foci in academia were centered around (eutherian) mammalian genetics and included evolution/comparative biology, epigenetics and developmental/ reproductive biology. During grad school I got interested in comparative mechanisms of sex determination in amniote (mammals, birds, reptiles) vertebrates and did a mock thesis proposal on this topic. I've periodically revisited the literature on that topic.

When I ran my own lab, research involved genes whose expression varies depending on whether they are transmitted via maternally vs paternally as well as a number of areas that involved differential phenotypic effects in males vs females. I went to many local, national and international meetings (including those focused on developmental and reproductive biology in mammals), went to and gave many seminars, and taught (among other things) developmental biology to grad students.

The point of that background is that over that time, I've been involved in many conversations with thousands of biologists and/or students where sex was an important variable and/or directly the subject of the topic. We used - either implicitly or explicitly - what a recent review by the society of endocrinologists (that unfortunately cowtowed to the recent gender ideology a bit) called the "classic" definition - namely which gamete type the individual/body in question was functionally organized around producing/delivering (which includes pre- & post-fertile individuals). Over all that time and all those interactions, I never heard any discussions about how we should define the sexes, that the definition we were using was wanting and/or confusion about what we meant by female and male.

That is, of course, until recently. I first noted some folks on "sci-twitter" (people who had mutual connections with scientists I knew or institutions where I'd been) claiming that sex was a spectrum/ not a binary in during downtime in the first year of the pandemic (the biologists involved were mostly not repro/devo/evo types). I initially engaged a bit (had some interactions with Emma Hilton) and was told that stating that sex is binary is seen as a "transphobic dogwhistle". Those social media arguments and most of the recent papers referenced explicitly appeal to social justice/inclusivity in their critiques (i.e. rather than functional issue with the definition).

If you're appealing to human-only social issues you're inherently getting it wrong: Note that there is a lot of evidence that male and female in humans correspond to what we call those sexes in other mammals and beyond. Therefore, any definition of female and male must work cross-species (at least across groups where there it seems clear that the two sexes are homologous rather than just analogous) - The gonad/gamete type is the only definition I've heard that works in that regard (& I'd argue the only definition that matters in the bigger picture) and it has had great utility.

As others have noted, there may differences between clades/phylogenetic groups in applying in those terms, particularly at different life stages. For example, it doesn't make much sense to label an embryo as male/female in species with environmental sex-determination (at least before that determinant is in place/the primordial germ cells are specified). And of course there are vertebrates that can change sex as well as those that can reproduce asexually. However, no eutherian mammal can change sex, parthenogenesis is precluded due to differential marking of genes in oogenesis vs spermatogenesis, and there are no species with a class of functional hermaphrodites.
While there are some core conserved players in sex determination pathway within vertebrates (with some modifications in eutherians) there is significant variation and it's unclear (to me at least) whether sex in non-vertebrate groups is homologous - reviews 1 & 2

Please note that people with disorders of sexual development (DSDs) do not indicate additional sexes or that ‘sex is a spectrum’. It's some serious cherry-picking to apply the 'defects are exceptions' criterion to sex and not other characteristics or species. Humans have 46 chromosomes, 5 digits per limb, like other primates are visually oriented, have a well-developed pre-frontal cortex, etc. However, there are pathogenic mutations (or accidents) that can alter any of these (or virtually any) characteristics in an individual. And I suspect if I was reporting on white-footed mice with indeterminate gonads who lived near a superfund site, no one would be calling sex a spectrum in that species.

Individual eutherian mammals develop along one of the two reproductive pathways. Those pathways get disrupted in some cases (via deleterious mutation in key genes or other insult that results in altered gene expression), but with modern methods, I'm not aware of any cases that defy classification (i.e. in which we can't tell whether the individual would have developed to produce oocytes vs sperm). But - if there were such cases - these individuals would be incapable of reproduction and therefore not relevant to the definition of a reproductive method and its relevant classes. Put another way, to disprove the sex binary, you'd have to show that there is a class of individuals who reproduce without producing one of the two established gamete types.

I point all this out because the internet is now rampant with (what seem to be) politically motivated arguments about defining sex. I am concerned this phenomenon is contributing to erosion of public trust in science As someone who is left-leaning on most issues, I'm also dismayed to see that much of the mis-information is coming from that side, and I suspect this will have negative ramifications. For example, it's harder to convince people of the effects of climate change and our impacts on the environment when you also can't define a woman or claim that Rachel Levine is the " first female four-star Admiral of the U.S. Public Health Service" (United States).
I am mostly a lurker here cause I don't feel qualified to make any statements about the subject. But I am an Atmospheric Scientist so I know a lot about climate changes and the political motivations behind the opposing sides. Can you explain to what you think are the "motivations" of those who think sex is more than just large and small gametes? What is their political goal? Again, I am no expert, and from what I've seen the split is about 60/40 on those scientists who say sex is binary. As opposed to 95% plus on the climate change issue.
 
I am mostly a lurker here cause I don't feel qualified to make any statements about the subject. But I am an Atmospheric Scientist so I know a lot about climate changes and the political motivations behind the opposing sides. Can you explain to what you think are the "motivations" of those who think sex is more than just large and small gametes? What is their political goal? Again, I am no expert, and from what I've seen the split is about 60/40 on those scientists who say sex is binary. As opposed to 95% plus on the climate change issue.
It's not split anything like that as I noted in my (longish) post, but most folks don't want to speak up (they just want to be left alone to their research). If sex was a spectrum, people studying humans and other kind of mammal would have some quantitative unit to describe them, and that unit would be prominently noted in any study. Again this has to apply to other mammals as well - so any study employing say lab mice or lions in the wild would have to have a statement noting where the males and females assessed fell along that spectrum. I cannot emphasize enough that there is no evidence of this practice (again, this would be a must if sex was a spectrum or some people were sexless)

I don't know what people's motivations are in claiming that sex is a spectrum (or not binary), but I suspect it's a mix of wanting to fit in with the political left (where many of us have had a political home our entire lives) and a desire to be kind. Most of those opinion pieces I've read explicitly appeal to reducing transphobia or similar. The folks I've seen making this claims have not employed it their research. You'll also note that those people don't propose an alternative definition or if they do, it fails the comparative test (i.e. implicitly suggesting that sex arose separately in humans).


I know one of the fairly famous biologists who was among a number saying that sex was not binary in a letter to a journal a few years ago. We collaborated and had joint lab meetings early in our careers. This person is a very hard worker, but it became clear (to me and others) that fame was prioritized over anything else for this person. Said scientist used data of ours without attribution in a paper, did the same for others (leading to high profile publications), as well as had some very likely cases of fudged data.

I was at the American Society of Human Genetics meeting last week (international meeting, > 7K attendees), and saw no evidence that most researchers there thought sex was anything but binary. The only acknowledgment of gender ideology I saw was a few people using the term "biological females" (and males)
 
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Part of the reason many academics won't speak out on the issue is fear.... fear of social media outrage mobs, fear of threats to themselves and their families, fear of losing the freedom to research in their chosen field, even fear of some of their ideologically captured fellow academics...

I have posted this list before, I think, but its time for a reminder.... a partial list of academics who have been targeted by outrage mobs and other academics for expressing ideas. Their consequences for speaking scientific truth have ranged from being fired, being driven out of academia, having papers retracted for no reason, deplatforming and ruination of their careers, to threats of violence and death.

Colin Wright, an evolutionary biologist.
Driven out of academia by an Twitter outrage mob for arguing in favour of a scientific truth, namely, that there are only two biological human sexes.

Dr. Kathleen Stock OBE.
Denounced and targeted as a “transphobe” by over 700 of her academic colleagues for the crime of advocating Gender Critical viewpoints, specifically that transwomen should be excluded from places like women’s locker rooms and shelters, and rape crisis centres, as well as for calling for an end to the assocation between UK universities and Stonewall.

Professor Selina Todd, history professor at Oxford University’s St. Hilda College.
Targeted by a Twitter outrage mob who had her "no-platformed" by the Oxford International Women's Festival, at which she had been due to speak. The event's organizers told her the decision was due to pressure from trans activists. Apparently, she had the temerity to state that there is a need for women-only spaces because of past violence against women by natural born males. She had to be given security because some of those nice, cuddly, inoffensive people that a number of posters here love to support, made threats of physical violence against her.

Professor Nathaniel Hiers of the College of North Texas.
Fired for calling microaggressions “garbage”. A lawsuit is ongoing against the College and Department Chair for violation of his rights to speech and academic freedom.

Professor Kathleen Lowery.
Removed from her position as Associate Chair for Academic Programs in the Department of Anthropology at the University of Alberta. Her crime? She expressed her disagreement with the idea that biological sex is irrelevant. She said that housing trans-identified men in women’s prisons is not fair to women prisoners and puts women at risk.

Laura Tanner, graduate student in Feminist Studies, UCSB.
Attacked by the outrage mob in an attempt to remove her from campus and teaching, because she stated the scientific and biological facts that there are only two biological sexes, and that a man can never become a woman.

Stephen Gliske, Neuroscientist, UMich.
Targeted for presenting a proposing a new theory of gender dysphoria that offended some trans activists and their academic sychophants.

Linda Gottfredson, Psychology, University of Delaware
Disinvited from a conference in Sweden for presenting research showing that there are group differences in average IQ test scores and for reviewing research showing that intelligence is heritable. In fact, intelligence is indeed heritable to some extent, but apparently, saying so triggered some snowflakes in Swedish academia.

Lisa Littman
, MD & behavioral scientist, Brown U
Fired from a consulting position because her paper on “Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria” butthurt a few transgender activists, professionals, and academics.

Now this is just a tiny selection of the thousands of academics who have been fired, lost positions, been forced to retract papers, and received threats of violence and death because they dared to challenge the Holy Creed of the Gender Ideology Cult. Academia is supposed to be a marketplace where ideas, no matter how controversial, are freely exchanged and debated with vigour. But it is rapidly becoming an echo chamber for trendy extremist liberal progressives, a place where any dissent must be stamped on, and those who dissent crushed along with it.

I am reminded of the words of some of the wisest people of our time - Carl Sagan, Karl Popper and George Orwell.

Carl Sagan spoke about the danger of Society trying to silence dissenting ideas. Here, he is talking about what happened to Immanuel Velikovsky when he published his book "Worlds in Collision" in 1950 for which he was pilloried by academia...

"There are many hypotheses in science which are wrong - that's perfectly alright, its the aperture to finding out what's right. Science is a self-correcting process - to be accepted, new ideas must survive the most rigorous standards of evidence and scrutiny. The worst aspect of the Velikovsky affair is not that many of his ideas were wrong, or silly, or in gross contradiction to the facts, rather the worst aspect was that some scientists attempted to suppress Velikovsky’s ideas. The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion and politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there is no place for it in the endeavor of science."

Karl Popper spoke about the dangers of an intolerant Society in something others called "The Paradox of Intolerance"

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.". In effect, trans radical activisists are the intolerant, and the public seem prepared to put up with their drive to silence dissent...."


And these lead perfectly into the third of the three wise men...

George Orwell, author of the seminal work, and cautionary story, "1984".
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past."
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right."



Orwell could yet be right... he just might only have had the year wrong... There are few works of literature that are as relevant today as George Orwell's "1984" - Margaret Atwood's "A Handmaids Tale" is one of them!
 
And yet Margaret Atwood herself is firmly on the sex-denialist side now, badmouthing Maya Forstater and Joanne Rowling and refusing to apologise for promoting slanders against them. I think this may be a reaction to the cancel culture mob having come after her, but I'm not sure about the details.

As someone said on Twitter yesterday, the protagonist in her book should just have identified as a man, pity she didn't think of that.
 
It's not split anything like that as I noted in my (longish) post, but most folks don't want to speak up (they just want to be left alone to their research). If sex was a spectrum, people studying humans and other kind of mammal would have some quantitative unit to describe them, and that unit would be prominently noted in any study. Again this has to apply to other mammals as well - so any study employing say lab mice or lions in the wild would have to have a statement noting where the males and females assessed fell along that spectrum. I cannot emphasize enough that there is no evidence of this practice (again, this would be a must if sex was a spectrum or some people were sexless)

I don't know what people's motivations are in claiming that sex is a spectrum (or not binary), but I suspect it's a mix of wanting to fit in with the political left (where many of us have had a political home our entire lives) and a desire to be kind. Most of those opinion pieces I've read explicitly appeal to reducing transphobia or similar. The folks I've seen making this claims have not employed it their research. You'll also note that those people don't propose an alternative definition or if they do, it fails the comparative test (i.e. implicitly suggesting that sex arose separately in humans).


I know one of the fairly famous biologists who was among a number saying that sex was not binary in a letter to a journal a few years ago. We collaborated and had joint lab meetings early in our careers. This person is a very hard worker, but it became clear (to me and others) that fame was prioritized over anything else for this person. Said scientist used data of ours without attribution in a paper, did the same for others (leading to high profile publications), as well as had some very likely cases of fudged data.

I was at the American Society of Human Genetics meeting last week (international meeting, > 7K attendees), and saw no evidence that most researchers there thought sex was anything but binary. The only acknowledgment of gender ideology I saw was a few people using the term "biological females" (and males)
Thanks, as I made very clear I don't have the background or qualifications to argue against sex as a binary or whatever issue on this topic. As an outsider, I see people arguing both ways. Your refutation of that observation sounds anecdotal to me--I quoted a survey (60/40), you are relaying personal experiences...I prefer statistics in these kind of discussions.
 
Thanks, as I made very clear I don't have the background or qualifications to argue against sex as a binary or whatever issue on this topic. As an outsider, I see people arguing both ways. Your refutation of that observation sounds anecdotal to me--I quoted a survey (60/40), you are relaying personal experiences...I prefer statistics in these kind of discussions.
You did not in fact quote a survey - you said ""from what I've seen". I did more than note 35 years of interactions with biologists in relevant fields- I (& others here) gave a definition - as the American society of Endocrinologists called it "the classic" one, noted how other definitions are wanting, and that people are not using "spectrum" definitions in practice. With the political climate right now - sure- you can get a bunch of (especially young) biologists to check the "not-binary" box. That's useless without a definition and evidence. Go for it if you like, noting that it must work in a comparative context and can't invoke disorders. So far, all the recent papers that argue against the binary fail one or both of these.

You might read one of Jerry Coyne's pieces here - I think he's right with what he terms the "reverse appeal to nature":
the equally mistaken view that “what we see as good in human society (a sex spectrum) must be also what we see in nature.

Finally, to disprove the sex binary what you should do is find a class of individuals that are demonstrably not either female or male and yet reproduce. We can't find such a class despite many millions of observations across mammals.
 
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Anyone arguing for a "sex spectrum" needs to label their axes.
Yes - that's the concise version of what I was getting at above. The fact that no one has done it in their proposed definition and that we don't see it in actual organismal studies is telling.
 

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