smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Transwomen are not Women - Part 15
- Thread starter d4m10n
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theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Statistically significant harm would be a horrible outcome for women. The idea is to hedge against the risk before it rises to the level of statistically measurable harm.
I'd be more willing to accept the risk if you made some case for why it's necessary.
You're talking about increased risk of sexual assault and a chilling effect on women's safe spaces, for what?
What social good is so imperative that women must "take one for the (male) team"?
stanfr
Illuminator
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Thank you for providing these, it was helpful for me trying to understand your perspective.
Respectfully, I think what you point to argues for the exact opposite of what you think.
Arguably, the 1st and 3d example you give are truly hate crimes, in fact it was basically acknowledged as so about the perpetrators.
It seems to me that you have completely ignored the key words in Pixel's statement that I was referring to when I asked for evidence
"women will know that if a male enters their safe space and behaves inappropriately , there's a real chance that they will find themselves being accused of a hate crime if they object." In neither of the 1st and 3d cases you referenced do the facts indicate that the person involved was behaving inappropriately.
In fact, in both cases it seems the person accused of 'hate crime' was behaving innapropriately (in the latter case, physical assualt!)
The 2d reference you gave me is the Daily Mail and given the loaded descriptions and headlines obviously no more credible than Fox News, so I gave up about half way through, but it basically read like a diatribe against 'political correctness' and not the sort of evidence I requested.
So while I appreciate your response, I don't find it very convincing.
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stanfr
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I'll be honest, I am the wrong person to ask this. I'm a straight white man. I'm just trying to understand the different positions here, I didn't bow out of this discussion before because (as smart cocky sees to believe) I felt defeated or something...I aint a biologist or therapist or psychologist or TRA...just an ordinary guy somewhat terrified by the takeover of society by hateful people. The women and LGBQT people who I do know are overwhelmingly on the side of the social good of inclusion and respecting other people's sense of identity and basic rights do justify the speculative risks that are bandied about. As an analogy, kind of like the freedom for women to chose abortion overwhelms the risk that elective abortions will devastate our species or that babies will start getting quietly killed. Same fear tactic in both.
Graham2001
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The Washington Post has posted in interesting opinion piece on the issue...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/11/14/moulton-trans-women-sports/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/11/14/moulton-trans-women-sports/
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Any time a politician complains their opposition is playing politics with people, you know for sure they're a hypocritical antisocial psychopath.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Jury trial started in February, haven't seen any news on subsequent appeals yet.
As skeptics, though, we have to realize that California is just one data point. There are over fifty other legal systems in the U.S. alone where we will witness the legal struggle between constitutional/civil rights laws and traditional common law bans on voyeurism and exhibitionism.
I really think we should think through probable consequences before making major changes to sociolegal norms like "Males, stay out of this safe space for females." Otherwise we'll be giving you stats on crimes that could have been easily avoided.
Hercules56
Banned
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How many confirmed examples are there of trans women sexually assaulting cis women in bathrooms, locker rooms, etc?
stanfr
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" I have two little girls. I don’t want them getting run over on a playing field by a male or formerly male athlete"
To me, that is exactly what I find troubling, that people, left or right, have this irrational fear of something they have been told to fear.
Why is there an *assumption* that it is gonna be a trans athlete running over your kids? Why is there only fear of the trans athlete, but not "regular athletes"? I'm not a total weakling, but there a several women at my gym who would kick my behind in a fight. If the trans athlete has a biologic advantage, then demonstrate it, scientifically--and institutionalize that finding in the rules of competition. Don't go inventing horror stories of trans athletes purposely working the system so they can psychotically destroy their female competition.
stanfr
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Fair point, and I'm actually in agreement with you there (I think LOL)--I do think people have moved too fast with the introduction of some of these laws/policies, and that is certainly part of the backlash the left saw in our recent political disaster.
The flip side that I've seen (admittedly just personal observation) is that the issue has come to the forefront precisely because people who formerly felt marginalized or threatened--people in the LGBQT community, are more public and vocal now, so these issues have become more public. And I personally think that is overall a good thing. I do not believe, as many on the right claim, that children are being groomed or programmed to want to change their gender. The idea that schools are performing operations on kids behind their parents' backs is a Qanon-worthy nutty scare tactic, and yet a significant portion of the population is completely convinced that its true...
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
The non-strawperson version of this meme is that schools are performing social transitions on kids without notifying their parents or guardians.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
It's not particularly likely in any given school district but you have to consider that parents are taking calculated risks.
Yes, it is risky to allow my daughter to play high school basketball, but the benefits tend to outweigh the risks, so long as we don't calculate into our risk assessment that she'd end up guarding someone built like Gabrielle Ludwig. That sort of thing is a bit of a bait-and-switch when it comes to balancing probable costs against expected gains.
Louden Wilde
Muse
We've been over this topic many times in this thread(s). Yes, it's been demonstrated that males have physical advantages over females and that trans-identifying males (i.e. transgirls or transwomen) retain these advantages even after several years of estrogen administration due to the effects of male development that can't be erased. Also, adding males of any kind to female sports makes them not female sports anymore. What women/girls are fighting back against is that someone's self-image trumps physical reality and the notion that it's not their decision to have their own spaces and activities.
Also please think about how categories work - namely it doesn't matter if a few women could you beat you up- you (& other males) don't belong in the women's categories of an MMA competition.
NYT also has an article on Moulton speaking up - in it, they note:
About two-thirds of Americans say transgender athletes should be allowed to play only on teams that match their sex at birth, according to a Gallup poll conducted last year.
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d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
I believe we were talking about "voyeurism and exhibitionism" just now, so that's a bit of a goalpost shift.
That said, does "etc" count women's prisons?
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Indeed. stanfr appears to have adopted the TRA argument - there is no reason to shut the stable door shut unless less there is evidence the horse will bolt if its left open.
Invoking the words of George Mallory..... "I do not need to see the mountain to know that it is there."
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smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
No, the fear is real because the players know they are in danger.
Women’s team with five transgender players ‘broke opponent’s leg’ and had parents fearing for girls’ safety
A women’s football competition has been branded misogynist after it was won by a team featuring five transgender players, amid accusations one had broken an opponent’s leg in two places.
The same meeting included accusations that a 6ft 2in, 14st Bats player had once broken the leg of 5ft 6in, nine-and-a-half stone opponent in two places and claims 24 of the injured player’s team-mates had quit because they did not want to face the LGBTQ+ side.
Even worse...
Since winning Sunday’s final in Sydney, Australia, 4-0, it has emerged that organisers had earlier held a crisis meeting, during which
rival teams were warned that forfeiting games against the Bats would result in disciplinary action
and could even be viewed as “an act of discrimination”.
The player who had their leg broken can no longer play the game.
Women’s football teams refuse to play after transgender player injures opponent
Now I can tell you for certain that, while leg injuries in soccer are quite common, broken legs are exceedingly rare, especially in the women's game, because the tackling is nowhere near a brutal.
Both Rugby Union and Rugby League have banned transwomen from playing in the women's game because of the obvious risk of severe, even life-threatening injuries.
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
The question I keep coming back to is: why are the feelings of a tiny percentage of males, when asked to use the sex segregated spaces reserved for their sex rather than their self identified gender, more important than the feelings of any and all females (many of whom have been the victims of male violence) when asked to share the women's showers with males?
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
I can tell you something you already know, but I'm making the point for lurkers, using your post
There are far more women (as in biological females) who have suffered violence at the hands of men (biological males) than all LGBTQ+ people combined, and massively more than the number of transgender people. I don't even have to quote any figures to confidently make an assertion that every one here reading this will know to be true. Anyone who claims they don't know its true, is being willfully blind!
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Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
Quite.
I'm not questioning the wisdom of agreeing to every demand TRAs make because I have anything against transwomen, on the contrary I have every sympathy for them. But I also have every sympathy for female rape victims. And there are a damn sight more of the latter than the former.
I'm not questioning the wisdom of agreeing to every demand TRAs make because I have anything against transwomen, on the contrary I have every sympathy for them. But I also have every sympathy for female rape victims. And there are a damn sight more of the latter than the former.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
I doubt that you're going to get a sincere answer from the TRA side of this debate here and now in the ostracized thread, but the answer I'm used to seeing generally references the idea of a class of oppressive (cis-) and oppressed (trans-) people and invokes the social norm that the latter group takes priority on grounds of equity and inclusion.
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