Merged Concerns over baby killer ignored? / Nurse Lucy Letby killed babies in her care

I think it is only fair to let Vixen show the source that backs up Baby C being born on 8th June.

It may be that she is confusing Baby C's birthdate with that of Baby A's death (8th June). Letby is accused of attempted murder of Baby B on 9th June, so it makes no sense to say that Baby C was born on 8th June and that Letby was off for the next two days.

In fact, if anything, I think it just looks as though it might be better to concede that Dewi Evans messed up with Baby C.

I might be more inclined to think that there may have been some sloppy procedures by the prosecution, and Letby could also be guilty.

It makes sense for a defence to target the weakest parts of the prosecution.

She hasn't got a source, because she made it up.

Letby can't have been the cause of the air in Baby C's stomach. Yet the air in the stomach is the entire reason that Baby C's death is considered a murder.

This is fatal for the case against Letby in this murder.
 
But ultimately, the babies part is what sends up the red flags, right?

And even then, that doesn't get it over the line to murder from manslaughter.

Baby C didn't die on 12 June 2015, the X-Ray was routine medical for suspected pneumonia, after which he was put on antibiotics, after which his condition stabilised. Letby succeeded in murdering Baby C on the night of 13-14th June 2015. That is what she is convicted of. She is convicted of both attempted murder and eventual murder of other babies. Imagine being so evil she victimised a tiny newborn and then stalked the poor thing until she succeeded.

Even if in the highly improbable, imaginary and hypothetical what-if scenario, Letby succeeded in getting the Baby C conviction overturned, she's still left with 14 whole life sentences to serve.


In fact, she is currently being investigated for several more at Alder Hey.
 
She hasn't got a source, because she made it up.

Letby can't have been the cause of the air in Baby C's stomach. Yet the air in the stomach is the entire reason that Baby C's death is considered a murder.

This is fatal for the case against Letby in this murder.

The big problem from the prosecution PoV is that this throws doubt onto the reliability of their expert witness - Dewi Evans. If his expert opinion that the death of this child was due to injected air based on the x-ray appearances is correct, then at least one other murderer exists, and this then throws doubt on whether some or all of the other deaths may have been caused by someone other than Letby. If he is wrong about the cause of death then this throws doubt on the reliability of his evidence on the cause of death in other cases, in particular the ones involving injecting air. It should be noted dubiety about his opinion on this fact has already been expressed on other grounds, in particular the reliability of skin discoloration. Evans has already expressed the opinion that Letby must have killed the child in some other way (I believe), if he has done so this is problematic, since it means he assumed the death was unnatural and was seeking evidence to support an unnatural death. What he should have done was in a Holmesian manner only concluded the death was unnatural once natural causes were excluded.
 
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Yeah I've read a bit about this and what a mess it is. Hellaciously suspicious events and behaviour and yet I've got some reasonable doubts as well. Glad I'm not closer to any of it.
 
Some interesting reports from the inquiry

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c05j4dng9q0t?page=5

NOTE: The investigations mentioned here is the Hospital's invstigation into the deaths, not the Police investigation into Letby.

First to speak is Peter Skelton KC, who is representing the parents of children A, B, I, L, M, N and Q

Vital information was overlooked with fatal consequences." Skelton points the finger at former chief executive Tony Chambers and medical director Ian Harvey who he says should have overseen investigations. "Consultants were met with the obdurately closed minds of their managers and senior managers,"

He says that families were kept in the dark over the investigation being carried out by the hospital into the deaths.
"The families should have been told by the hospital that they were investigating the deaths," Skelton says. "Not telling them was morally indefensible...and it meant that the investigations themselves did not capture information that only the families themselves could have given.” He adds that "open mindedness, engagement with the police, the coroner and the families were notably absent from the hospital’s investigations".

Skelton now moves on to discuss individual cases. He says the blood results of Child F's insulin poisoning were a "major opportunity to identify major criminality". He notes that the historic cases of Allitt and Chua both used insulin poisoning as a mode of attack.

Skelton now moves on to discuss individual cases. He says the blood results of Child F's insulin poisoning were a "major opportunity to identify major criminality". He notes that the historic cases of Allitt and Chua both used insulin poisoning as a mode of attack.

Skelton now addresses the widely-published doubts surrounding Lucy Letby's conviction.

For context: Some statisticians have publicly questioned the credibility of some of the evidence against Letby - such as a staffing rota showing she had been on duty for every suspicious death or collapse between June 2015 and June 2016.

Skelton says that critics of the case against Letby don’t understand that her conviction was not through statistical argument. He highlights the fact the Court of Appeal refused her permission to appeal her case and that she was convicted because the "factual and expert medical evidence demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that she had harmed the children at the hospital"
.​

The court is now hearing from Richard Baker KC, who is representing the families of children C, D, E, F, G, H, J, K, O, P, R - and also Child U who didn’t feature in the criminal trial.

Baker refers back to the case of Beverley Allitt, who was working at Grantham hospital in Lincolnshire when she killed four children and tried to murder another nine in 1991.

The case will remain a "constant presence" throughout the inquiry as it bears a "remarkable similarity" to Letby, he says.

Moving on to the circumstances of some of the children's deaths, Baker says: "Despite what has been said in the media, the babies weren’t all vulnerable. "Some were ready to go home - they were stable, improving. Nobody could understand why they were suddenly collapsing and dying.
"The families ask: 'Why was there not greater curiosity? Why was it in some cases that families were told not to have post mortems? Was it part of the secrecy?'. He adds that anybody doubting the case "should be ashamed of themselves"

Baker added that the families are in no doubt that Letby is guilty. The jury were in no doubt that she is guilty. This is being arrogantly ignored. As a society we are too quick to make judgements made on first impressions. We prefer our monsters to look like monsters. It’s sometimes hard to accept that evil can be banal but we should not be so naive. To be successful a serial killer hides in plain sight.
.​

Just like the Cullen case, the Hospital administrators tried to cover up their own incompetence and lack of judgement. That resulted in Letby being able to kill at will.

It also seems possible that this case is not the first time Letby has done this sort of thing...

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2g20rpr78o

Babies' breathing tubes were dislodged at an unusual rate during Lucy Letby's placements at Liverpool Women's Hospital, the public inquiry into her crimes has heard. Richard Baker said that Liverpool Women's Hospital had conducted its own audit into Letby's time there. He told the inquiry that some babies collapsed due to dislodgement of endotracheal [breathing] tubes. This is not something that is happening all the time", he said.

"It is unusual, and you will hear that it occurs generally in less than 1% of shifts." The audit found that there were recorded incidents of the tubes being dislodged on 40% of the shifts Letby worked at Liverpool Womens' Hospital.

Mr Baker said: "In light of what we know now, we might wonder why.”

Liverpool Women’s NHS Foundation Trust had previously confirmed it was working with Cheshire Police on the investigation into Letby's time at the hospital.
 
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Wow! Apparently, despite Vixen’s assurances that the police were statistical wizards fully apprised of notorious pitfalls such as confirmation bias, and with their ANOVA tests, Spearman’s tests and Pearson’s R, these graduate-level plods decided that maybe they should actually get some outside help from statisticians….



But who is this Hutton woman anyway? What’s she got to do with this investigation?




From the same Guardian article.

Wow! That is pretty damning.
Indeed, and the UK Police are still tryiong to keep Hutton quiet about her "confidential" discussions.
:rolleyes:
 
Oh dear jeebus what a mass of bollocks Vixen has spewed.

Ah, yes, Felicity Lawrence, who is one of the lead campaigners into Letby's innocence.
Yes, and? Have you considered why Lawrence (an award winning journalist, writer and researcher, unlike you) is so vehement in her campaigning? That she's actually looked at the scanty evidence and seen a problem?
:rolleyes:
I cancellled my subscription to the GUARDIAN because of the grossly insensitive attitude towards the victims' families (How often do newspapers ignore the rule of law?)
:rolleyes:
What "rule of law" is being ignored? Like you "fighting words" lies?
And, frankly, I don't believe you ever heard a Guardian subscription.

Likewise, I notice Dr Hammond's latest claim in PRIVATE EYE is the argument that Letby's nursing colleagues thought she was a wonderful competent nurse.
That's not all he said, is it?
:rolleyes:
So must be a miscarriage of justice, then.
:rolleyes:
Wow, you double standards are showing.....
 
Dan Wootton thinks she is innocent

Dan Wootton
@danwootton
For four years I stayed silent on the horrific deaths of multiple babies in Chester. But tomorrow I break my silence in a special episode of Outspoken because I am now convinced that Lucy Letby has been subjected to one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in British history.

Watch the full Letby special with @profnfenton and @LawHealthTech here:
 
The elimination process is not a statistical process. That, apparently the rate of babies dying was statistically high, was just an indicator of a potential problem at the unit.
 
As the Thirlwall Inquiry continues, what is becoming fascinating is just how easy Letby found it to fool her colleagues into thinking she was ordinary. People let their subjective impressions guide them instead of carrying out proper procedures. For example, suspending her as a registered nurse whilst investigations were ongoing or having borders between staff and management. As an example, not only was the Occupational Health (HR) bod exchanging chummy WhatsApp messages (735!) but as a nurse being investigated for nursing irregularities, she was sent off to a...children's hospital on a course arranged to relieve Letby's stress (who cares about the babies! Sticky, yelling screamy stinky things). Head of the Risk management team to which Letby was finally deployed to desk work, Ms Griffiths became great friends with Letby, assuring Letby that everybody was behind getting Letby back on t he neonatal unit. Then yet another work colleague exchanged jokey tips with Letby on 'how to get away with murder' haha.

Now for example, today, Thirlwall is hearing:

The chairwoman of a grievance panel which examined a complaint by Lucy Letby said she had initially thought accusations against the nurse were a "witch-hunt", a public inquiry heard.

Annette Weartherley also said she had heard a rumour Letby had "rebuffed" the physical advances of one of the doctors who accused her of harming babies.

The Thirlwall Inquiry, which is examining the NHS's response Letby, heard that Ms Weatherley was deputy chief nurse at a trust in Manchester at the time.

She was brought in to be the independent chairwoman of a grievance panel set up by the Chester hospital after Letby made a formal complaint about being moved off the neonatal unit.

Ms Weatherley told the inquiry that before the grievance hearing started she was asked by Dee Appleton-Cairns, the deputy director of human resources at the Countess, what she thought of the accusations against Letby.

Ms Weatherley said she told Ms Appleton-Cairns she thought it was a “witch-hunt” and added that Ms Appleton-Cairns, who was also on the grievance panel, replied: “We all think the same, it’s so sad.” https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g7jzz25gpo

Last week we heard a letter read out from Letby's parents saying they could not understand why their daughter was being picked on. That might be understandable. It is Mum and Dad after all, but then we had the executive team, Tony Chambers et al still holding off on calling the police in light of the expert concerns of consultants, not to mention a forensic doctor noting the abnormal insulin/C-Peptide levels but shrugging it off as it being impossible to have been caused deliberately by a nurse or doctor. Plus the married doctor Letby had a crush on constantly reassuring Letby she had done nothing wrong (>1,000 social media messages between them).

So Letby seemed adept at getting people to feel sorry for her. She is probably someone who started young, being an only chiild who was the apple of her parents' eyes, she probably learned at an early age how to manipulate them into thinking her a sweet little angel who could do no wrong. However, they seem to have pushed her into a nursing career so maybe they did spot a heart of stone and thought nursing might teach her empathy and kindness. In their letter to the grievance panel whilst Letby was deployed, they state they had sleepless nights wondering how could it be their daughter under suspicion, and one wonders whether it must have crossed their minds that Lucy was not quite as normal as they wanted her to be.
 
The elimination process is not a statistical process. That, apparently the rate of babies dying was statistically high, was just an indicator of a potential problem at the unit.
Underresourced, understaffed, badly maintained and quite likely at least some staff that weren't up to the work (looking at the two consultants who first dobbed Ms Letby in).
 
An interesting article here, looking at the viewpoint of those who were witnesses for the prosecution, some of whom are rightly angered by the ill-informed of their honesty and integrity the Letby innocence mob.


INJECTED AIR
Syringes in hospitals are thrown away and incinerated after they have been used. As a murder weapon, they are virtually untraceable.

According to the prosecution, the babies deteriorated suddenly and unexpectedly. Retired consultant paediatrician Dr Dewi Evans was the prosecution's main medical expert witness. He told us: “Babies don't suddenly drop dead.”

Many exhibited strange skin discolourations that medics on the unit hadn’t seen before. Some babies screamed.

The babies also failed to respond to resuscitation as medics expected. Post-mortem X-rays revealed air in the blood vessels of some.

One of the paper’s authors, Dr Shoo Lee, later appeared as a witness in Letby’s defence, during her unsuccessful attempt to appeal her convictions in April 2024. He said none of the skin discolourations seen on the babies in the Letby case were proof of air embolism.

Lawyers for the prosecution disagreed. They also pointed out that skin discolouration was just one item on their air embolism checklist and that they had never argued that one particular form of skin discolouration was, on its own, proof of air embolism.

(Dr. Mike Hall said) “I think that what the prosecution experts said was misleading for the jury. That’s not the same thing as saying that they deliberately misled the jury.”

It is an allegation that both of the main prosecution experts reject emphatically.

Dr Dewi Evans told us: “Those suggestions are completely flawed and indicate either that the people making them have not seen the clinical evidence or that they are unaware of what constitutes well-being in a premature baby.”

Consultant paediatrician Dr Sandie Bohin, the prosecution's other main expert, who is speaking about the controversy surrounding the case for the first time, said: “I gave evidence under oath 16 times. I told the truth.” "It was my opinion and remains my opinion that these babies were stable prior to their collapse, so I can’t agree with those people that suggested that I misrepresented the stability of the babies and that I misled the jury.

“I think that’s an outrageous suggestion.”

One obvious question is why Dr Hall didn’t testify in court. He clearly disagreed with the prosecution experts, and the fact that he didn’t give evidence meant that Letby had no medical expert witnesses in her defence.

That has prompted some to argue she didn’t have a fair trial.

We asked Dr Hall if he had been willing to testify and he said he had.

He told us he was expecting to give evidence and that he was told of the decision not to call him “right at the last minute”- a decision that left him “at odds” with Letby’s defence team. Dr Hall told us he was so concerned that he even considered writing to the judge to say he believed that the jury had not heard the whole truth.

But the ultimate decision not to call Dr Hall as a witness came from Letby herself.

Now, I wonder why that was!!?

INSULIN
Where you find high levels of insulin, but low levels of C-peptide, there is only one obvious conclusion: the insulin is not natural and has instead been administered from the outside.

That is what investigators found in two of the babies in the Letby case. One had extremely high levels of insulin in his blood and a C-peptide level that was so low that it was unmeasurable. The second baby had an insulin level more than four times higher than the C-peptide level, again indicating it had not been naturally produced.

The medical condition of the babies also fitted with the lab results. In both cases, the babies’ blood sugar levels had plummeted, which is what you would expect to see with insulin poisoning. And while no-one saw Letby poisoning either of the two babies, she was there when they started experiencing symptoms.

Of all the allegations in the case, this one looked like the most solid. In court, Letby herself accepted the scientific evidence that the babies had been given dangerous quantities of insulin. She just denied being responsible. Her lawyers were more cautious. They did not accept the insulin evidence, but they did not say it was incorrect either.
 
With regard to your highlighted
"Babies don't suddenly drop dead" quote
- can you remind me what SIDS stands for?
Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, which is of course totally irrelevant, since NONE of the collapsed children died from SIDS.

Are you suggesting that SIDS (which has an incident rate of 1 in 2000 to 1 in 5,000 live births) was the cause of the seven deaths in this case?

For mine, the far more important question is why did Letby not want Dr Michael Hall to be called as a witness at her trial? What was she afraid of that he might have to reveal under cross-examination from the prosecution?
 
And don't forget the sewage.
Help me out here.... please connect the dots for me in each example

How do sewage leaks cause air to enter babies' stomachs?
How do sewage leaks cause insulin poisoning/overdoses?
How do sewage leaks cause air bubbles in the bloodstream?
How do sewage leaks cause breathing tubes to become dislodged?

Underresourced, understaffed, badly maintained and quite likely at least some staff that weren't up to the work (looking at the two consultants who first dobbed Ms Letby in).

Likewise.

With the possible exception of the dislodged breathing tubes, which might conceivably be the result of several nurses being clumsy or incompetent) how could any of the things you mention result in air bubbles in the stomachs and/or bloodstreams of the deceased babies, or in insulin poisoning?
 
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