Merged Strict biological definitions of male/female

I realized a defeater to my suggestion, one that you mention below, so I had to rethink my suggestion. That was the reason for my "nvm."

Well, you COULD have just edited your comment to acknowledge that your argument didn't hold much water. Instead of obliging me to do so for the others who might also have seen the email of that comment and thereby misjudged both you and me.

Ya know, I can almost hear the sneer behind "nice." That gives me little reason to continue with you. ....
:rolleyes: I WAS quoting YOU, your signature. And even followed up with a smiley. If you want to read between the lines then that is up to you -- "a man hears what he wants to and disregards the rest" ...
 
How, exactly, does that work for sequential hermaphrodites, particularly clownfish at hatching? They're "organized around" EVENTUALLY producing one or the other or both. Which sex are they at that point?

When clownfish hatchlings rise up and demand either segregated or shared toilets, then, and only then, will this be relevant.

"produces gametes" -- right now -- is readily detectable and observable, at least theoretically. "organized around" isn't.

Yeah: you still don't understand- or are pretending not to understand- Present Simple tense.

A mechanical clock missing a piece is "organized around" producing sounds, but it is not "working", is not really a clock unless it is actually producing the sounds, unless one can hear the sounds it is supposed to make.

A broken clock is still a clock. Unlike you, though, it will still be right twice a day.
 
Well, ok, let's address this then:

"Finally, the fact that a species has only two biological sexes does not imply that every member of the species is either male, female or hermaphroditic, or that the sex of every individual organism is clear and determinate. The idea of biological sex is critical for understanding the diversity of life, but ill-suited to the job of determining the social or legal status of human beings as men or women."

Well, other than the existing segregation by sex in safe spaces and sports and such, what OTHER social and legal status do you need, that depends on whether a woman is actually ovulating right now or post-menopause, or whether a guy has a vasectomy? It doesn't even help with, say, maternity leave, because the woman stopped producing ova when she got pregnant.

It sounds like some kind of dystopian fantasy, beyond even the worst far right ideas, if anything about your social or legal status actually depends on whether you're actually fertile or not right now. What society actually needs that distinction? Maybe the Republic of Gilead from The Handmaid's Tale?

And even there, can you imagine the nightmare of a state apparatus needed to keep track if you're ovulating right now, and changing your legal status back and forth accordingly?
 
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Yeah: you still don't understand- or are pretending not to understand- Present Simple tense.

Yeah. Which, produces an even more absurd result than even most of his critics seem to realize. Because it goes even further than pre-puberty or post-menopause, or pregnancy or while lactating.

Requiring something to produce ova right now to qualify as female has this doozy of a problem: a woman only actively produces an egg between days 6 and 14 of the menstrual cycle. So even under the best of conditions, someone can be a woman at most a third of the time.

If that's not an absurd result, I don't know what is.

Or since I brought up cats, those are even more funny, because they only ovulate when they actually have sex. So by his reasoning a cat can literally be female only for 3 days a year :p
 
Yeah. Which, produces an even more absurd result than even most of his critics seem to realize. Because it goes even further than pre-puberty or post-menopause, or pregnancy or while lactating.

Requiring something to produce ova right now to qualify as female has this doozy of a problem: a woman only actively produces an egg between days 6 and 14 of the menstrual cycle. So even under the best of conditions, someone can be a woman at most a third of the time.

If that's not an absurd result, I don't know what is.

Or since I brought up cats, those are even more funny, because they only ovulate when they actually have sex. So by his reasoning a cat can literally be female only for 3 days a year :p

Well, ok, let's address this then:



Well, other than the existing segregation by sex in safe spaces and sports and such, what OTHER social and legal status do you need, that depends on whether a woman is actually ovulating right now or post-menopause, or whether a guy has a vasectomy? It doesn't even help with, say, maternity leave, because the woman stopped producing ova when she got pregnant.

It sounds like some kind of dystopian fantasy, beyond even the worst far right ideas, if anything about your social or legal status actually depends on whether you're actually fertile or not right now. What society actually needs that distinction? Maybe the Republic of Gilead from The Handmaid's Tale?

And even there, can you imagine the nightmare of a state apparatus needed to keep track if you're ovulating right now, and changing your legal status back and forth accordingly?

... and his response to all this will be ...

Ostrich-man-head-in-sand.png
 
Philosophers have, in general, kind of muddied the waters there -- job security. But "analytic propositions" basically follow from that concept of "by definition". For example, "all teenagers are 13 to 19", is an example of an analytic proposition because it is "true by definition". If someone is 13 to 19 then "she/he/it" is a teenager. And if they're not 13 to 19 then they're not a teenager. No exceptions.


You keep using this example but it's actually a terribly vague and inconsistent definition. Is a 17 year old cat a teenager? Is a 13 year old sea tortoise a teenager? How about a 15 year old giant sequoia tree? If I said "look at that teenager" while pointing to a bowl of Jell-O that was forgotten in the back of the fridge for nineteen years, do you think the person I was speaking to would just be grossed out, or confused and grossed out?

Don't try to give me any nonsense about "teenager" only applying to humans. You've been quite firm that definitions are completely invalid if they don't apply to every possible species.

In fact, "teenager" should apply even more broadly than that, because only living species reproduce with gametes but all kinds of things have an age. Was the Moon a teenager thirteen years after it formed? Is a fifteen year old toaster a teenager?

But the questions and problems don't end there. Fictional characters are among the many things that can have an age, and it's well known that they can be teenagers. Let's consider one example. Any film critic summarizing the plot of Ferris Bueller's Day Off will note that Ferris, a high school senior, is a teenager. Now, it's well known that the actor playing Ferris was 23 at the time. That's no problem because it's the character who's a teenager, not the performer playing that character. The actual problem is that the character was created in or before 1986. That is to say, the character is at least 38 years old. So, a teenager and yet not a teenager. Completely inconsistent!

This can be true of real individuals as well. Pharaoh Tutankhamen ("King Tut") was nineteen (or possible eighteen), a teenager, when he died, according to forensic and archaeological consensus. But that was over 3300 years ago. Is he still a teenager? If so, how is that possible being over 3300 years old? If not, how did he age after death? Why do all the signs at the museums call him the "boy king" instead of the "incredibly old man king?" This isn't just an issue for ancient kings. Should we stop referring to the "teenage victims" of the Columbine shootings, because they're all middle aged or older now? No exceptions, remember!

Can hard physical science clear this up? Let's see. Well-established relativistic physics tells us that if an 11-year-old space cadet were to away on a spacecraft making a round trip to a distant star at high relativistic speeds, the cadet might have only aged four years despite 100 years passing on Earth upon his return. So at the end of the trip he's a teenager in ship time but way too old to be a teenager in Earth time. That's no good. A proper scientific definition must apply at every velocity! No exceptions!

Then, consider what it means if it turns out after the stowaway was discovered aboard the space ship he was put in cryo-stasis for the first three (ship time) years of the mission, to save resources. So physiologically he's only aged one year between his departure and his return, too young (by that measure) to be a teenager yet. So in that case he's simultaneously too young, too old, and the right age to be a teenager.

Clearly your definition of teenager is completely inadequate, and using it can only result in confusion, conflict, overly lenient home mortgage lending policies, and a pestilence upon the land. Two pestilences and a heavy fog, even.
 
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... and his response to all this will be ...
"ostrich-man meme" ...
:rolleyes: Bit rich given that it has been your standard modus operandi for some time to post your "I don't care" meme, and then run off to stick your own head in the sand. Or wherever ...

[ETA] But any plans afoot to weigh-in on the "thorny" problem -- for you in any case -- of deciding whether the religion-less have a religion? ... :rolleyes:
 
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...

Requiring something to produce ova right now to qualify as female has this doozy of a problem: a woman only actively produces an egg between days 6 and 14 of the menstrual cycle. So even under the best of conditions, someone can be a woman at most a third of the time. ...

Don't think you quite understand the concept of "regular" -- and many other ones besides, but who's counting? .... :rolleyes:

regular: 2a) : recurring, attending, or functioning at fixed, uniform, or normal intervals
a regular income
a regular churchgoer
regular bowel movements
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/regular


 
Well, ok, let's address this then:
...
Well, other than the existing segregation by sex in safe spaces and sports and such, what OTHER social and legal status do you need, that depends on whether a woman is actually ovulating right now or post-menopause, or whether a guy has a vasectomy? It doesn't even help with, say, maternity leave, because the woman stopped producing ova when she got pregnant.
Completely missing the point -- intentionally by the look of it.

Griffiths has said, I've quoted him saying dozen's of times, that the biological definitions aren't much use in social applications. Though that wasn't the reason they were defined the way they are; they're not designed as participation trophies.

But your "definitions" look to be no better than the Kindergarten Cop definitions -- boys have penises and girls have vaginas. If that's the way you want to roll then fine by me. But don't think you have much of a leg to stand on when people like Tickle & Khelif claim access to women's spaces because they have brand new "neo-vaginas" or had something that looked like a vagina at birth.
 
When clownfish hatchlings rise up and demand either segregated or shared toilets, then, and only then, will this be relevant.

Sure a lotta people in this rather benighted neck of the wood who are slow on the uptake. Who rather pigheadedly refuse to learn anything about the issues in play.

Griffiths has said, I've quoted him saying dozen's of times, that the biological definitions aren't much use in social applications. Though that wasn't the reason they were defined the way they are; they're not designed as participation trophies.


Yeah: you still don't understand- or are pretending not to understand- Present Simple tense.
Yeah, you still don't understand the concept of "necessary and sufficient conditions":

An intensional definition gives meaning to a term by specifying necessary and sufficient conditions for when the term should be used. In the case of nouns, this is equivalent to specifying the properties that an object needs to have in order to be counted as a referent of the term.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensional_and_intensional_definitions

A broken clock is still a clock. Unlike you, though, it will still be right twice a day.
:rolleyes: Would you pay full price for a "clock" that was missing its mainspring, its balance wheel, and indicating arms?

Rhetorical or silly question -- what am I thinking? Of course you would ... :rolleyes:

Just because something looks like a clock, doesn't mean it IS one. Maybe a "clock" is just a box for some cigars?

In many cases it is the presence of a particular function, a particular functioning mechanism that qualifies as the necessary and sufficient condition for something "to be counted as a referent" of a particular term.

For example, we might say -- following from Hilton's acceptance of the standard biological definitions -- that "alive" denotes those with a beating heart. It's the presence of that on-going process that qualifies someone as "alive". That a corpse on an autopsy table previously had a beating heart doesn't justify one saying, rationally in any case, that the corpse is still alive -- "just resting, doncha know?" :rolleyes:
 
Griffiths has said, I've quoted him saying dozen's of times, that the biological definitions aren't much use in social applications. Though that wasn't the reason they were defined the way they are; they're not designed as participation trophies.

Yet you still fail to answer exactly WHAT is the use for your definition. You've already conceded that some stuff like bathrooms should continue to go by the "Kindergarten Cop definitions." So what other legal and social stuff should depend on whether a person with a vagina is on the pill or not? How do you even plan to keep track of whether they're currently on the pill or not, to know if they qualify for legal or social status A or B?

I mean, I ranted about people needing me to remember pronouns like "fae" in the bio. But at least I can ask someone "so what ARE your pronouns then?" without getting called to HR. In your case, I'd have to go to someone and ask if they're fertile or not, which I'm sure the nice HR women will love to hear all about.

But again, the main question remains: what for? Give me an example of what social or legal status needs to know if you're on the pill (or born infertile, or having a late puberty, or pregnant) or not?

But your "definitions" look to be no better than the Kindergarten Cop definitions -- boys have penises and girls have vaginas. If that's the way you want to roll then fine by me. But don't think you have much of a leg to stand on when people like Tickle & Khelif claim access to women's spaces because they have brand new "neo-vaginas" or had something that looked like a vagina at birth.

Wait, you literally said less than a page ago that, and this is a copy and paste quote, "I'm saying that toilets should be -- and in fact are -- segregated by genitalia. One set of loos for the penis-havers, and one set for the vagina-havers. Or reasonable facsimiles thereof."

Either you have something against Tickle going to the women's bathroom with a "neo-vagina" (whatever that means,) or you don't. I mean, you literally said above that a reasonable faximile is enough.

And if you ARE OK with separating spaces by genitalia, then, again, for what ELSE do you need to know if they're actually fertile? It doesn't even help with sports, since nobody said that a swimmer who's on the pill has an advantage over one who isn't.
 
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Don't think you quite understand the concept of "regular" -- and many other ones besides, but who's counting? .... :rolleyes:


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/regular

So, still doing dodges and pretending you said something else? Because the definition on which you insisted on "present tense" did NOT in fact mention "regular". Nor did you amend it that way yourself.

It's downright silly to play that kind of game, when it's in the same thread and anyone can just scroll up to see what you actually said.


Plus even ret-conning "regular" into that isn't making it much less absurd. Even "regular" is not a given in women. A woman can have no ovulation for years in a row, if she's pregnant and then breastfeeding.

I'm sure that with all that dropping quotes out of context from biologists like you're an expert, you must have already known that, right?
 
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Don't try to give me any nonsense about "teenager" only applying to humans. You've been quite firm that definitions are completely invalid if they don't apply to every possible species.

I'm sure that with all that dropping quotes out of context from biologists like you're an expert, you must have already known that, right?


But that's easy to do if you use Steersman's technique of just making stuff up as he goes along, and moving the goalposts when he can't.
 
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For example, we might say -- following from Hilton's acceptance of the standard biological definitions -- that "alive" denotes those with a beating heart. It's the presence of that on-going process that qualifies someone as "alive". That a corpse on an autopsy table previously had a beating heart doesn't justify one saying, rationally in any case, that the corpse is still alive -- "just resting, doncha know?" :rolleyes:

Except that's not how alive or dead is defined. Someone can have their heart stop beating and still not be dead. It's in fact the whole point of doing chest compressions on someone whose heart stopped beating. If heartbeat stopping meant he's dead, whelp, you don't need CPR, you need a necromancer to bring that dude back. But anyway, I personally know someone who survived a cardiac arrest, and he's very much not dead. And he was saved by a doctor, not by the Lich King :p

It also doesn't account for artificial hearts which don't beat. They're just a pair of centrifugal pumps. So by your incorrect definition, someone with one of those could be moving around the room and still count as dead.

Or even without one of those, you can be missing a heart completely at some point during a heart transplant, and just have a machine pump the blood around to keep you alive. Keyword: alive.

And then come species like the wood frogs, which can actually stop their heart completely during hibernation.


And that illustrates the problem with just making up your own biology definitions, without much knowledge on the topic :p
 
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This thread has been going round and round for some time without either Steersman on the one hand, and everyone else on the other hand, moving a millimeter closer to the other side's position. Steersman has stated his case many times, and everyone else has stated their objections, of which there are several. Steersman's arrogant treatment of those who disagree with him hasn't helped either side try to understand the others' position.

So in the hope of moving this forward I'm going to try a reset.

I think Steersman is correct to the extent that there is a technical definition of male and female which applies and is useful in reproductive biology and in understanding the evolution of sex across anisogamous species. He claims that the sufficient and necessary condition for being male or female according to this technical definition is to currently be producing small or large gametes. His insistence on misinterpreting the simple present tense to mean "is currently producing small or large gametes" has been shown to lead to absurdities, which absurdities he has attempted to dismiss by appealing to "regular" production. The problem with that is that he has not attempted to define "regular". One will not get a precise and ambiguous definition if it relies on vague and ill-defined terms.

Nevertheless I accept that there is a technical definition of male and female which applies and is useful in reproductive biology and in the study of the evolution of sex. If that definition relies on a current biological capability of producing small or large gametes (whether or not gametes are being produced at that precise moment) then we can avoid some of the more egregious absurdities without any loss of generality. This definition would still apply to the more awkward cases of serial and simultaneous hermaphrodites, to the various castes of social insects and to sexually immature and mature adult forms (sub-imago and imago) of mayflies. Under this definition, pre-pubescent children and post-menopausal women are indeed sexless. However, I do not think that this definition is the only one that is "science" as Steersman would have it.

Although this strict technical definition is useful within the field to which it applies, it is by no means the only definition which is useful or acceptable across all biological and medical sciences. As I have pointed out before, it is common for biologists to need to distinguish between males and females at all life stages. In non-hermaphroditic species, biologists can and do refer to the sex of sexually immature or post-menopausal individuals (those individuals who will become or have been sexually mature males or females), and because sex is immutable in these species, this definition is coherent, useful and commonly used by biologists. A five year old child can coherently and correctly be referred to as male or female as can a sexually immature yew seedling. Note that this is the case only if one accepts that sex is immutable in these species and that one can predict with very high confidence which size of gametes a sexually immature individual will produce when it matures. This definition is determined by the size of gametes the organism will be, is or was capable of producing. It is unambiguous, useful and used by biologists in biological and medical disciplines where the (anatomical, biochemical, endocrine and neural) distinction between male and female is important across all life stages.

The definition used by reproductive biologists is even less useful when it comes to human social and legal issues. In fact it leads to absurd anomalies. In that case the second definition I describe above is coherent and unambiguous. For social and legal purposes, I think that women could usefully and coherently be defined as adult female humans who are or were capable of producing large gametes. This definition avoids the absurdities which result from using the reproductive biology definition, and the anomalies attendant on various rare DSD conditions if phenotype or karyotype-based definitions are used. Needless to say I do not accept that a woman is any person who says they are a woman, or an individual who has or had the capability of producing small gametes and who has undergone surgery and medication in order to mimic the secondary sex characteristics of those who have or had the capability of producing large gametes.
 
Steersman said:
You keep using this example but it's actually a terribly vague and inconsistent definition. Is a 17 year old cat a teenager? ....

:rolleyes:

teen·ag·er; noun
a person aged between 13 and 19 years.


Cats are and anisogamous species. Since you reject definitions that don't apply to all anisogamous species, I don't see why I should accept this one, or why you'd use it as an example of the principles you're trying to apply.

Also, many of the issues I raised did involve persons. Maybe take another look. A definition should apply at all velocities, and this one doesn't.
 
Griffiths has said, I've quoted him saying dozen's of times, that the biological definitions aren't much use in social applications.

That's only true if you pick stupid biological definitions, or if you want to substitute gender for sex. Otherwise, no.

But your "definitions" look to be no better than the Kindergarten Cop definitions -- boys have penises and girls have vaginas. If that's the way you want to roll then fine by me. But don't think you have much of a leg to stand on when people like Tickle & Khelif claim access to women's spaces because they have brand new "neo-vaginas" or had something that looked like a vagina at birth.

Textbook straw man. That isn't the definition anyone here is using, so knocking it down is both unimpressive and irrelevant.
 
@hecd2
Granted you managed to un-dumb his definition to some extent, but my objection is still: what do you actually need that extra classification FOR?

It's not even helping with sports, since a castrated man (which he counts as now sexless) still has a different skeleton and differently linked muscles to that skeleton (e.g., in the legs) than a woman. It's not like there's a way to also modify your body to be just like a female one, like the potion from Onimai.

If you, say, make a sexless sports category, the castrated man will still out-compete a castrated woman in most sports. In fact the latter would be at even more of a disadvantage in some sports, since she'd start losing bone density faster than the former. If the two get in a particularly energetic body check situation, I know who I'm betting on to get the broken hip.

So it doesn't help with sex-specific spaces (he still wants to keep them separated by genitals), and it doesn't help with sports. What else does it help with, then?
 

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