Neil Gaiman "cancelled"?
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HansMustermann
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I haven't really researched the issue or anything, but so far I haven't seen anything actually saying that they actually said "NO!" or were coerced in any way. Different people have different kinks, and while they may not be yours too, or you may even feel uncomfortable with them, or worse, they have no way of telepathically knowing how you feel inside. You kinda have to speak up.
On the other hand, IIRC Gaiman was an outspoken male feminist and IIRC insisted that we should always trust the women when it comes to sexual assault allegations. So, I guess, the least I can do to honour him is by taking his advice when it comes to this case
On the other hand, IIRC Gaiman was an outspoken male feminist and IIRC insisted that we should always trust the women when it comes to sexual assault allegations. So, I guess, the least I can do to honour him is by taking his advice when it comes to this case
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Brainster
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Brainster
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And when the chokee owes you rent it's clearly consensual.
HansMustermann
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I still haven't heard about it being coercion, though. Like, if he'd said something to the effect of "spread them or you're evicted", it would be coercion. But I don't remember seeing that claimed.
Rolfe
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Fair. His music is awful.
It's an acquired taste. Some people take longer to acquire it than others, that's all.
Yes, it's easier to separate the artist from the art when the former is dead. Start with someone dead for practice, if you like. But the art stands on its own merits either way. I have always admired Gaiman's art, with caveats, and that is not going to change depending on revelations about his character or misdeeds.
See also Caravaggio, Gesualdo.
It's pretty much claimed here:
More details here of the earlier allegations, though I haven't listened to the podcasts - https://www.tortoisemedia.com/2024/07/03/exclusive-neil-gaiman-accused-of-sexual-assault/
HansMustermann
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I stand corrected.
But then the way it's phrased, she agreed to a deal where she'd get a place to stay AND 275K in exchange for sex. Doesn't that qualify as prostitution? I mean, sure, it would make Gaiman guilty of soliciting, but still.
But then the way it's phrased, she agreed to a deal where she'd get a place to stay AND 275K in exchange for sex. Doesn't that qualify as prostitution? I mean, sure, it would make Gaiman guilty of soliciting, but still.
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arthwollipot
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Coerced compliance is not consent.
EHocking
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I got the impression that the payment was more of a Stormy Daniels-type of hush money payment, since it seems to have been part of a non-disclosure agreement, presumably pertaining to the potential assault.
HansMustermann
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Making a deal is also not the same thing as coercion. If sex was a condition to getting to move there in the first place, it's basically just a part of the deal. An icky deal to be sure, but still one that is up to her. She can take the deal, or refuse the deal and find another place. If someone just up and said "spread them or you're evicted", then it's coercion.
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There would be, in my opinion, a big difference between that and then paying the victim afterword to keep quite.
That also doesn't change the fact that even if that deal was struck, any particular encounter could still be assault or rape.
That deal literally turns into "spread them or you're evicted" the moment she doesn't like it any more. And anyone can also walk away from a "spread them or you're evicted" situation.
HansMustermann
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Not in the coercion sense. If you no longer can or want to pay the rent you agreed to, is a different situation from someone just springing a threatening scenario on you.
I mean, by your logic, if I'm renting a flat even for money, it becomes somehow robbery if I want to stop paying and still stay there, but my landlord insists that, no, I must pay if I want to keep staying there.
And really, it's not even just about money. Services work too. E.g., I've actually had a company offer to pay for a hotel room in city A, as long as I work for one of their projects in that city. Thinking it's coercion if they don't continue their part of the bargain, even if I cancel mine, is downright silly.
I mean, it's not even something complicated, it's basic contract theory. If you agreed to provide X in exchange for Y, regardless of whether either of those is money, lodging, services, etc, and no longer do, it's breach of contract.
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I have trouble imagining a coercion scenario that doesn't involve the inability or refusal to pay rent. The people who can pay the rent are the ones who can afford to walk away.
HansMustermann
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Yet, again, we don't judge it as some kind of one-sided coercion in literally any other situation. Like, not only money. If I let my mad science assistant Igor stay in one of the rooms in my castle as long as he assists me in collecting body parts, and then he suddenly decides not to do his part, nobody would condemn me if I evict his useless ass.
Fair enough, but then "spread them or you're evicted" is never coercion. It's either an alternative deal, or a new deal.
HansMustermann
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Look, let's skip the house. Let me give you a RL scenario.
A long time ago, in galaxy far a... err... just in the early 2000' I was drinking with a friend of mine, and it may have been half past two bottles of vodka, and here comes this doozy: he's pondering whether to marry or just have a prostitute on retainer. Apparently he'd been seeing a hot prostitute for a while (Czech, if I rememeber right; but that plays no role) and really liked her. Sounds like ye olde love story, but the guy's proposal to her isn't marriage, but "How much would I have to pay you to have sex only with me, every day?" (And that's also when I learned that choking on Vodka really hurts.) Apparently she said "2000 euro a month." (Again, this was early 2000's.) Which he could afford, hence wondering if he should go with that.
He was also open to letting her live in one of the spare rooms, IIRC, but if not, you know, just show up at 8pm, get screwed, take a shower and get the hell out.
(Classy, I know.)
Now the deal fell through, but for the scope of this exercise, let's assume they shook the hand on that.
Let's say that two years later, she decides she no longer wants to have sex with him. (Which, knowing the guy, wouldn't surprise me.)
Is he under any obligation to keep paying her? Is it coercion if he says, "well, I'm not gonna keep paying you, if you don't spread the legs"?
A long time ago, in galaxy far a... err... just in the early 2000' I was drinking with a friend of mine, and it may have been half past two bottles of vodka, and here comes this doozy: he's pondering whether to marry or just have a prostitute on retainer. Apparently he'd been seeing a hot prostitute for a while (Czech, if I rememeber right; but that plays no role) and really liked her. Sounds like ye olde love story, but the guy's proposal to her isn't marriage, but "How much would I have to pay you to have sex only with me, every day?" (And that's also when I learned that choking on Vodka really hurts.) Apparently she said "2000 euro a month." (Again, this was early 2000's.) Which he could afford, hence wondering if he should go with that.
He was also open to letting her live in one of the spare rooms, IIRC, but if not, you know, just show up at 8pm, get screwed, take a shower and get the hell out.
(Classy, I know.)
Now the deal fell through, but for the scope of this exercise, let's assume they shook the hand on that.
Let's say that two years later, she decides she no longer wants to have sex with him. (Which, knowing the guy, wouldn't surprise me.)
Is he under any obligation to keep paying her? Is it coercion if he says, "well, I'm not gonna keep paying you, if you don't spread the legs"?
theprestige
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Hans, what is your point?
HansMustermann
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That if you agreed to have some kind of advantages in return (or "consideration" as it's called in contract law) in exchange for sex, you're literally just a prostitute, not a rape victim.
And yes, as every law student is taught, consideration can be ANYTHING, even as low as one corn of pepper. You can void a contract if it's "you give me X for nothing", but "you give me the Taj Mahal in exchange for a corn of pepper", is a valid contract if both sides agreed to it.
NB, I'm not using prostitute as an insult or demeaning in any way. They're hard-working members of society just like anyone else. They can keep their head high. But they're not the same as rape victims.
Is all I'm saying.
And yes, as every law student is taught, consideration can be ANYTHING, even as low as one corn of pepper. You can void a contract if it's "you give me X for nothing", but "you give me the Taj Mahal in exchange for a corn of pepper", is a valid contract if both sides agreed to it.
NB, I'm not using prostitute as an insult or demeaning in any way. They're hard-working members of society just like anyone else. They can keep their head high. But they're not the same as rape victims.
Is all I'm saying.