"Misgendering" is now a federal offense

[Thermal]

Sometimes they have fun campaigning for the three people on the planet that actually want to use them. Or use Xhre.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Well, yes, I also have no trouble believing that some activists are just into being activists, not into actually representing anyone

 

[arthwollipot]

Therefore, in spite of the fact that, as stated above, I support those who are in the LGB and T communities, I do not accept, and I will never accept, that a trans woman is a woman, or that a trans man is a man....

Then despite your protestations you do not support trans people. You oppose them - you deny them their identity, their existence.

And you wonder why people call you transphobic.

 

[d4m10n]

The gist of the policy seems to be "hey maybe you don't think of this as harassing, but we want to assure you that *we* do." So not so much an upgrade as clarification.

Nearly any words can be harassing if you use them to harass. If you have a co-worker named Elisha whom you always call "bald head" that could well be considered harassment and even hostile workplace.

 

[arthwollipot]

Hans touched on this, but let me make a key aspect more explicit.

Male sexual predators have an incentive to pose as females to access victims. The trans rights movement, particularly self ID, gives them cover to do so. Female sexual predators don’t operate the same way as male sexual predators. They don’t need to pose as males to access victims, they have no incentive to. So people worry about sexual predators posing as trans women, but they don’t worry about sexual predators posing as trans men, because there’s an asymmetry to sexual predator behavior. This is completely logical, and also completely obvious.

Here. Here is the thing that is totally blown all out of proportion.

For a start, accessing female facilities in order to sexually assault women is already illegal. Second, the number of people actually doing this is vanishingly small. Third, passing is difficult and time-consuming. Passing well enough to not be immediately the centre of attention is not just a matter of throwing on a dress and some lipstick. Trans women spend a lot of time on this, sometimes spending years before they are comfortable with their presentation. Some dude with sexual assault on his mind is not going to spend this amount of time and dedication in order to sneak into the girls' dunnies. He's just going to go in there and commit the crime.

The "bathroom problem" is not as big a problem as a lot of people make it out to be. Far from it.

 

[Thermal]

Nearly any words can be harassing if you use them to harass. If you have a co-worker named Elisha whom you always call "bald head" that could well be considered harassment and even hostile workplace.

Absolutely. But calling someone bald head, or fat ass or what have you is interpreted by virtually all as being insulting/harassing. As we see in this thread, many consider pronoun use to fall.outside of that and simply being true to theirselves. Or xirselfs. It's complicated.

 

[Thermal]

Well, yes, I also have no trouble believing that some activists are just into being activists, not into actually representing anyone

They pull coin from donations and swag sales. Excluding even a fringe minority would be off message.

 

[arthwollipot]

Translation: let's do the full spoiled brat thing and make a big show of leaving and slamming the door

Look, nobody forces you to take part in any discussion whatsoever. But making sure everyone sees you throwing a fuss and slamming the door ain't say much else than that you've indeed run out of arguments

Yeah. That and I don't like allowing transphobic arguments to stand uncountered. Like the propagandistic Trump-reminiscent lie that misgendering is now a federal offense.

But this thread is fast becoming as toxic as That Other Thread, so my participation may well diminish regardless.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Then despite your protestations you do not support trans people. You oppose them - you deny them their identity, their existence.

And you wonder why people call you transphobic.

That's another weird position. It's like saying I oppose some girl who thinks she's a cat (again, there are plenty), if I don't think she's actually a cat. Plus, if me being beastkin-phobic is what it means, who cares? She's still not an actual cat. I brought her a whole bag of white mice, and she couldn't even catch one and threw me out

More seriously, the main thing you have an ipse-dixit fallacy. The X=Y is supported by no more than some people saying it is so. At most from there it's supported by some argument to pity fallacies ('but you're lacking compassion if you disagree!!!111eleventeen'), plus a couple of other equivocation fallacies at best, and some copious brow-beating (like you're doing right now) and ad-hominem abusive, not even circumstantial, at worst.

And a lot of just finding some excuses (whether lack of interest, or it comes from a 'rightist' site, or whatever) to put your fingers in your ears and pretend to not even hear any of the actual arguments from the other side.

If you can't make an argument without doing some butthurt fanboy whargl (even if fanboy of an idea) about what's wrong with people if they don't just accept your argumentum ex rectum, i.e., just pulling postulates out of your ass, you literally have nothing.

Or to use your own phrasing, slightly paraphrased: And you wonder why people call your arguments illogical

 

[arthwollipot]

I think the trans person is the one who should give way here, simply because if they feel they are actially in the "wrong" literal body, being in the "wrong" locker room is pretty trivial.

I know trans people who are very happy with their body. I know that the "wrong body" is a common stereotype, and there are trans people who definitely feel that way, but it is certainly not universal. Gender dysmorphia does not always manifest as feeling like you're in the "wrong" body. It can feel like your body is wrong, but that's not the same thing.

 

[arthwollipot]

Yes, sadly some folk fail at the standard social contract and need bad behaviour spelt out and codified.

This. Well said, sir.

 

[arthwollipot]

Dunno, they're still listed on, for example, the human rights campaign site: https://www.hrc.org/resources/understanding-neopronouns

And really, many other sites.

Along with such stuff as "fae". Like, really, you couldn't have just gone for "elf"?

I mean, admittedly it's last been updated about 2 years ago, but on the flip side, it's also not been updated to say that's no longer the case, either.

Yes, neopronouns still exist, and there are some people who still use them, but there have been many, many different neopronouns suggested since the 60s and very few of them have caught on in any meaningful way, especially since the gender-neutral singular "they" is already right there.

 

[arthwollipot]

Absolutely. But calling someone bald head, or fat ass or what have you is interpreted by virtually all as being insulting/harassing. As we see in this thread, many consider pronoun use to fall.outside of that and simply being true to theirselves. Or xirselfs. It's complicated.

Just use the normal word. Themselves. There's no need to complicate it.

 

[Thermal]

I know trans people who are very happy with their body. I know that the "wrong body" is a common stereotype, and there are trans people who definitely feel that way, but it is certainly not universal. Gender dysmorphia does not always manifest as feeling like you're in the "wrong" body. It can feel like your body is wrong, but that's not the same thing.

Really not seeing a significant distinction between your body being wrong for you, and you being in the wrong body. Not being confrontational, but that totally sounds like navel gazing poetry.

Unless it's like if I was a guy trapped in a woman's body, but it was a rocking hot one (and I'm sure it would be), then I'd love my body and like play with my boobs all day?

 

[Thermal]

Just use the normal word. Themselves. There's no need to complicate it.

I don't think that's respectful to theirselfers.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I know trans people who are very happy with their body. I know that the "wrong body" is a common stereotype, and there are trans people who definitely feel that way, but it is certainly not universal. Gender dysmorphia does not always manifest as feeling like you're in the "wrong" body. It can feel like your body is wrong, but that's not the same thing.

Wait, so you're actually saying that there are people who are A-OK with being in a male body, from chest hair and one week beard to swinging around a dick in the shower, and still qualify as gender dysphoria? Like, how does that even qualify? If you're perfectly A-OK with being born in a male body, then WTH DO you actually have to object with it? Just that someone else doesn't file you under 'chicks with dicks'? What does it even mean, other than idiotic lexical sophistry to say that it's not the wrong body, it's the body that's wrong?

Like, if I used the same argument about a less emotionally charged topic like, say, my car: what's the ACTUAL difference between saying I have the wrong car for me, and that my car is wrong for me?

 

[arthwollipot]

Really not seeing a significant distinction between your body being wrong for you, and you being in the wrong body. Not being confrontational, but that totally sounds like navel gazing poetry.

It's the difference between "this is not my body" and "this is my body, but it's wrong - it has features that I don't think it should have".

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Just use the normal word. Themselves. There's no need to complicate it.

That's not what activism sites, like the one I just linked to, tell me I should do.

 

[Thermal]

It's the difference between "this is not my body" and "this is my body, but it's wrong - it has features that I don't think it should have".

I didn't realize the first option was even on the table.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

It's the difference between "this is not my body" and "this is my body, but it's wrong - it has features that I don't think it should have".

Then literally nobody except possibly some forms of schizophrenia is actually meaning the former. All forms of body or gender dysphoria say some form of the latter. Like, literally virtually nobody who's not schizophrenic actually thinks they're residing in someone else's body, like in H. P. Lovecraft's "The Thing on the Doorstep". Even the expression of being born in the "wrong" body, just means it's not the right one for them, not that they're literally in a body that's not theirs. Even Body Integrity Identity Disorder doesn't say that they're in a body that's not theirs, it just means their body doesn't match their self-perception.