"Misgendering" is now a federal offense

[Cat Not Included]

There's a limit to this, of course. If somebody tells me they're Napoleon, Jesus, an Alsatian, a cat, or any other obvious delusion, I don't have to play along, I hope. On the other hand, if some bearded git in a skirt tells me he's really a little girl, I'm supposed to respect that and play along and use his preferred pronouns.

I'm sorry, I don't understand why that's different.

Like the repressed memories of Satanic Panic a generation ago, I suspect this idiocy has about run its course.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire.

As relevant now as ever.

Oh, get over yourself and join reality. Nobody on the 'transgender people are human too' side gives a damn what you believe or is just trying to get you believe anything beyond maybe a rudimentary belief that "you shouldn't be a jerk to people" or at least "semantic disagreements aren't worth being a jerk to people over". At the end of the day, nobody even cares about that. They just want you to NOT be a jerk. If you're sitting at a red light, nobody cares if you BELIEVE that stoplights are a brilliant system to control traffic or if you BELIEVE that they're evil tyranny infringing on our natural god-given right to move freely, they just ******* want you to NOT run into them.

Despite your bizarre persecution fantasies, nobody is ever going to come up to you and scream "I demand that you tell me I'm a (girl/boy) or I'll have you arrested!". Never. Meanwhile, in the real world we've got ******* politicians, celebrities, and media personalities posting elaborately horrific violence fantasies and leading calls for violence and murder against people just because someone misgendered them. Have you seen the repulsively vile crap that Alex Jones posted about Imane Khelif, who might I remind you is cisgender? The student whose family got death threats and harassment when some ******* decided to (INCORRECTLY BY THE WAY!) claim she was trans?

In the real world cisgendered women who just happen to have a short haircut get screamed at and threatened and insulted because men like you decide they don't look 'female' enough. I've known a cisgendered man with a short haircut who wears men's clothing, but hey, thanks to biology he's tiny with extremely fine and frankly pretty features and can't grow facial hair, so he's had guys like you hit on him, get nasty when he says he's not interested, then get outraged when they learn he's a guy because somehow that means he's "tried to trick them". BY WEARING MEN'S CLOTHES AND A MEN'S HAIRCUT AND TELLING THEM NO.

You learn a person with a beard says they're a woman and you scream they can't be.

But then you learn THIS person with a beard says they're a man, and you scream that no, they're really a woman and can't be a man.

And then a different person with a beard says they're a woman, and you scream they're really a man even though they were born with female genitalia. But they just happen to be hirsute and part of a religion that doesn't want them to shave their face because they believe god doesn't want them to change how they were created.

You don't even know who the **** you're screaming at or why. You haven't checked any of these people's genitals or genetic makeup. Half the time or more you're even just flat out WRONG about whether a person is cisgender or transgender or intersex or nonbinary.

Meanwhile, you go on about 'believing absurdities' while flocking to idiots who tell you that because someone else uses pronouns that you don't agree with, they are actually a perilous threat to you.

You believe people who tell you the authorities on gender, sex, and the best way to handle gender dysphoria are NOT psychiatrists or doctors or sociologists. The people who know transgender people best are NOT transgender people. In fact, according to you, the experts are on all of these subjects are pillow salesman, convicted criminals, reality show hosts, and young adult book authors. Because in your warped reality something makes these people experts.

You are so incredibly thin skinned that the very thought that you might one day have to refer to someone by a pronoun that you don't agree with (even though you haven't actually checked to be sure - and ****, no, don't go trying to check) fills you with utter dread and fear. And no, you can't expect to be bothered to learn to use gender neutral pronouns or just not refer to gender when you're not sure of it. Yet somehow you believe that you are the ones who are NOT easily offended.

Stop ******* whining and just learn how to go out in public without screaming insults at people and be a presentable human being.

 

[jt512]

I suspect a lot of the vehement anti-trans people in here and elsewhere on the internet would be more polite to trans folk face-to-face.

I think there is probably no one here is "vehemently anti-trans."

 

[Ron Obvious]

Oh, get over yourself and join reality. Nobody on the 'transgender people are human too' side gives a damn what you believe or is just trying to get you believe anything beyond maybe a rudimentary belief that "you shouldn't be a jerk to people" or at least "semantic disagreements aren't worth being a jerk to people over". At the end of the day, nobody even cares about that. They just want you to NOT be a jerk. If you're sitting at a red light, nobody cares if you BELIEVE that stoplights are a brilliant system to control traffic or if you BELIEVE that they're evil tyranny infringing on our natural god-given right to move freely, they just ******* want you to NOT run into them.

Despite your bizarre persecution fantasies, nobody is ever going to come up to you and scream "I demand that you tell me I'm a (girl/boy) or I'll have you arrested!". Never. Meanwhile, in the real world we've got ******* politicians, celebrities, and media personalities posting elaborately horrific violence fantasies and leading calls for violence and murder against people just because someone misgendered them. Have you seen the repulsively vile crap that Alex Jones posted about Imane Khelif, who might I remind you is cisgender? The student whose family got death threats and harassment when some ******* decided to (INCORRECTLY BY THE WAY!) claim she was trans?

In the real world cisgendered women who just happen to have a short haircut get screamed at and threatened and insulted because men like you decide they don't look 'female' enough. I've known a cisgendered man with a short haircut who wears men's clothing, but hey, thanks to biology he's tiny with extremely fine and frankly pretty features and can't grow facial hair, so he's had guys like you hit on him, get nasty when he says he's not interested, then get outraged when they learn he's a guy because somehow that means he's "tried to trick them". BY WEARING MEN'S CLOTHES AND A MEN'S HAIRCUT AND TELLING THEM NO.

You learn a person with a beard says they're a woman and you scream they can't be.

But then you learn THIS person with a beard says they're a man, and you scream that no, they're really a woman and can't be a man.

And then a different person with a beard says they're a woman, and you scream they're really a man even though they were born with female genitalia. But they just happen to be hirsute and part of a religion that doesn't want them to shave their face because they believe god doesn't want them to change how they were created.

You don't even know who the **** you're screaming at or why. You haven't checked any of these people's genitals or genetic makeup. Half the time or more you're even just flat out WRONG about whether a person is cisgender or transgender or intersex or nonbinary.

Meanwhile, you go on about 'believing absurdities' while flocking to idiots who tell you that because someone else uses pronouns that you don't agree with, they are actually a perilous threat to you.

You believe people who tell you the authorities on gender, sex, and the best way to handle gender dysphoria are NOT psychiatrists or doctors or sociologists. The people who know transgender people best are NOT transgender people. In fact, according to you, the experts are on all of these subjects are pillow salesman, convicted criminals, reality show hosts, and young adult book authors. Because in your warped reality something makes these people experts.

You are so incredibly thin skinned that the very thought that you might one day have to refer to someone by a pronoun that you don't agree with (even though you haven't actually checked to be sure - and ****, no, don't go trying to check) fills you with utter dread and fear. And no, you can't expect to be bothered to learn to use gender neutral pronouns or just not refer to gender when you're not sure of it. Yet somehow you believe that you are the ones who are NOT easily offended.

Stop ******* whining and just learn how to go out in public without screaming insults at people and be a presentable human being.

Again, look who's doing the actual screaming in this thread. For the record, I'm not remotely thin-skinned, and I'm fully onboard with "transgender people are people too. If only it ended with that...

 

[Thermal]

Well this is going well.

 

[Samson]

I know a number of trans women who have been using women's bathrooms for some time, and by their reports I can count the number of times a woman has had a problem with that on one hand. With no fingers. The number is zero.

Yes, this is anecdotal, but it is consistent.

Many women do not want this but have put up with it until the activists like Roxanne Tickle took over the party.
But you know this, and have decided for women the world over on a policy that pleases you.

 

[Samson]

Thanks for bringing up that lie. Do you see how such accusations are weaponized? Do you see how many suckers who thought a biological male was boxing against women lost their puny minds?



Helen Lovejoy approves of this message.

Imane Kheliffe is a man with incomplete genitals.
But you have to get beyond NYT and WAPO and onto places like X and Substack to understand.
What is more he knows himself, as he is on drugs to lower testosterone among other things.
The testosterone can only come via male puberty.
It is misgendering to call him she.

 

[arthwollipot]

Imane Kheliffe is a man with incomplete genitals.

How do you know that? You can't even spell her name right.

 

[arthwollipot]

I think there is probably no one here is "vehemently anti-trans."

Then you are either blind, or you are one of them.

 

[Orphia Nay]

I think there is probably no one here is "vehemently anti-trans."

There are none willing to call a transwoman she/her.

Nobody's asking them to sleep with a trans woman.

Nobody's asking them to let trans women into women's private areas or women's sports. Those are issues for other threads.

Would it hurt them to call trans women by their preferred pronouns when face to face?

 

[arthwollipot]

Oh, get over yourself and join reality.

 

[arthwollipot]

I think you and Ron are probably thinking about the question differently (in this case what I think is your view of the question is right, though I'm not sure about your conclusion because you haven't stated it precisely).

That's odd because I think I've been pretty clear the whole time. Trans women are women, you should call people by the name and pronoun that they want to be called by, and if you misgender someone you should apologise and do your best to remember next time. What's imprecise about that?

I think Ron's 99% is meant to be something like: "Take a random sample of people and spend a minute or two with each one, then identify their sex", and he thinks he'll be right 99+% of the time.

That's not what he said. He said that "most of us" can tell. I do not believe that to be the case. Some transgender people do not put a lot of effort into passing, but some do, and some are very good at it. Heck, Clapton wrote a song about it.

But it's not actually the meaningful question related to pronoun use that I think you pose: instead, when he's faced with someone whose pronoun seems to be in opposition to their biological sex, he's not taking someone from a random sample of the population. The analogous test to the first one is you start with a random sample, you identify each person's sex, and based on that predict their pronouns. Then, some of them disagree, saying "I'm a he, not a she" or "I'm a she, not a he". From this group, what proportion can he identify their biological sex? I don't know the answer, but it will be smaller than the first group because we've selected out all the easy cases. And this is clearly the relevant question about pronoun use, because we're talking about which pronouns to use when your initial reaction is in conflict with what the other person wants you to use.

This is why I share my pronouns up front, and encourage others to do the same, and why many transgender and nonbinary people do too. That way, nobody has to make any assumptions based on their initial reactions.

 

[smartcooky]

Despite your bizarre persecution fantasies, nobody is ever going to come up to you and scream "I demand that you tell me I'm a (girl/boy) or I'll have you arrested!".

Clearly, you have never heard of Stephanie Heyden!

https://www.legalcheek.com/2018/10/...shing-tweets-containing-her-former-male-name/

https://grift.watch/stephanie-hayden/

Heyden has filed lawsuits against more than 20 people since 2016 for the "crime" of deadnaming and misgendering him. He has also had members of the public arrested by the police. In most cases, they were held for several hours, interviewed under caution (US equivalent of being read Miranda rights) and had their devices confiscated without a warrant, and retained for days and even weeks.

Therefore, the idea that you might have someone scream at you demanding you use their preferred pronouns, and having you arrested for not doing so, is NOT a fantasy. It is, in fact, a cold, hard reality of the completely ****** up world we are living in - one in which free speech can be abrogated and telling the truth is criminalized.

 

[smartcooky]

That's odd because I think I've been pretty clear the whole time. Trans women are women, you should call people by the name and pronoun that they want to be called by, and if you misgender someone you should apologise and do your best to remember next time.

1. Transwomen are NOT women, they are biological males. Irrefutable scientific fact

2. No! I will never, ever apologize for speaking scientific truth and/or objective, observable reality.

 

[jt512]

Then you are either blind, or you are one of them.

No. You and your ilk equate any dissent whatsoever from your ideology as akin to Nazism.

 

[smartcooky]

There are none willing to call a transwoman she/her.

I have said I would under the circumstances you provided previously.

Nobody's asking them to sleep with a trans woman.

No comment.

Nobody's asking them to let trans women into women's private areas or women's sports. Those are issues for other threads.

However it is a natural consequence of complying with trans-radical activists' demands over the pronoun issue. Like any radical group, they will take what they can get and then demand more. When they get that, they will demand still more - and they will keep doing this over and over until they get everything they want... if we let them. In particular, trans-radical activists have a considerable history of using intimidation, bullying and violence to get what they want.

Would it hurt them to call trans women by their preferred pronouns when face to face?

Yes. Its the thin end of the wedge. I find the demands that I must deny objective scientific reality in order to satisfy the whims of some precious snowflakes, both insulting and demeaning to me personally. I will not comply!

 

[jt512]

I think there is probably no one here who is "vehemently anti-trans."

There are none willing to call a transwoman she/her.

Even if that were true (it's not), that would not make someone "vehemently anti-trans." You don't have to be anti-trans at all (much less vehemently) to object to being compelled to use language or adopt an ideology you disagree with.

Would it hurt them to call trans women by their preferred pronouns when face to face?

Last time I checked, we call people "you" face to face.

 

[jt512]

This is why I share my pronouns up front....

I've seen pictures of you, and anybody can tell just by looking at you what your so-called gender identity is. You don't share your pronouns upfront to signal your gender identity; you do it to signal gender ideology.

 

[Roboramma]

That's odd because I think I've been pretty clear the whole time. Trans women are women, you should call people by the name and pronoun that they want to be called by, and if you misgender someone you should apologise and do your best to remember next time. What's imprecise about that?

I wasn't talking about your conclusion about the broad topic of the thread, I was talking about how well you can tell someone's sex by looking at them. Ron says most people would be right 99+% of the time, you think less but didn't give an exact percentage, that's the only thing that I meant by "you didn't state it precisely".

You may also not have noticed but I was supporting your position with that post.

That's not what he said. He said that "most of us" can tell. I do not believe that to be the case. Some transgender people do not put a lot of effort into passing, but some do, and some are very good at it. Heck, Clapton wrote a song about it.

Okay, change "he would be right 99+% of the time" to "most people would be..."

This is why I share my pronouns up front, and encourage others to do the same, and why many transgender and nonbinary people do too. That way, nobody has to make any assumptions based on their initial reactions.

But that's not the issue that was being brought up in either my post or the post of Ron that you responded to earlier, which is how well people can determine sex by looking at secondary sexual characteristics.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Clearly, you have never heard of Stephanie Heyden!
...
https://grift.watch/stephanie-hayden/

Heyden has filed lawsuits against more than 20 people since 2016 for the "crime" of deadnaming and misgendering him.

Stephanie Hayden is no stranger to litigation. Since 2016, Hayden has filed at least 20 cases with the High Court of England and Wales. Most of these cases allege similar grounds: harassment and misuse of private information. Some of them have also included a claim for defamation and blackmail.

For the most part, these stem from claims made by the defendants around the biological reality of Hayden's sex, as well as the public circulation of pre-transition photographs and pre-transition names that Hayden says amounts to harassment.

I'm confused. Why would they be 'publicly circulating pre-transition photographs and names' of a trans person? Sounds like harassment to me.

 

[arthwollipot]

I wasn't talking about your conclusion about the broad topic of the thread, I was talking about how well you can tell someone's sex by looking at them. Ron says most people would be right 99+% of the time, you think less but didn't give an exact percentage, that's the only thing that I meant by "you didn't state it precisely".

You may also not have noticed but I was supporting your position with that post.

Then I apologise for reading it wrong.

If you want to know how well I can tell someone's sex by looking at them, then my answer is I don't know. It depends on the person. Sometimes I can tell, sometimes I can't. I will say that for the majority of people it's not particularly ambiguous but I wouldn't be willing to say how big that majority is. I've seen trans people who pass flawlessly, who if they didn't say that they were trans, you couldn't tell. And I've seen trans people who make absolutely no effort to pass.

But the more important question is why does anybody feel that this is a judgement they have to make in the first place? People present they way they want to present, whether trans, cis or nonbinary. Whether they are "actually" male or female or both or neither makes absolutely no difference to how I relate to them as a person. Why not just take them at their word? What's to be gained by denying them?