"Misgendering" is now a federal offense

[arthwollipot]

I guess you missed the part about knowing them well. I'd say they qualify as transgender by the current definition. I think you're moving the goalposts.

Okay, let's give you the benefit of the doubt. What did they say when you told them that you believe that biological reality overrides feelings of self-identity?

 

[Ron Obvious]

Okay, let's give you the benefit of the doubt. What did they say when you told them that you believe that biological reality overrides feelings of self-identity?

I didn't. It's not the kind of thing that needed to be said back then.

 

[arthwollipot]

I didn't. It's not the kind of thing that needed to be said back then.

How long ago was that? You did say that it was considered a "totally shameful secret" at the time, so that was what - 70s? 80s?

Have you spoken to any trans people this century? 'Cause things have changed, you know.

 

[Ron Obvious]

How long ago was that? You did say that it was considered a "totally shameful secret" at the time, so that was what - 70s? 80s?

Have you spoken to any trans people this century? 'Cause things have changed, you know.

I know attitudes had changed. I didn't know the condition itself had.

 

[bruto]

I didn't. It's not the kind of thing that needed to be said back then.

I there some good reason why it must be said now?

 

[Ron Obvious]

I there some good reason why it must be said now?

To them specifically? In person? No, not that I can think of. The university friend has been dead for years anyway, and I don't know whatever happened to the guy from work.

When speaking in general, or about policy, I'm certainly erring on the side of reality as well as rejecting compelled speech on principle. Really, this was never controversial among sceptics until very recently.

 

[Roboramma]

There isn't. For the thousandth time, there isn't. This isn't a federal law, it's a private school giving their policy guidance related to Title IX, and possibly a few others colleges may have the same guidance. There is no federal law. Just stop it.

Yes, I somehow thought I'd finished the thread when I wrote that reply, but was a couple of pages behind. Sorry about that. It seems more like "a particular school's policy misreads a federal law (Title IX)".

I also don't think that if someone says "the policy on transgender is stupid" that they will suffer any consequences. We can't find any evidence, and I've asked, of that actually happening. So far there is nothing more than fear mongering around individual interpretations. I honestly feel that saying "there is no mockery" of the rule is when it's individualized. Saying "The fact I have to call you a woman instead of a man is dumb as hell". I don't know. None of us really know because there's never been anything documented we can refer to.

I have a problem with a rule against mockery. I would have more of a problem if that rule were being stringently enforced, but I still strongly disagree with the writing of that rule, whether or not it's being enforced.

 

[Roboramma]

Biological reality overrides feelings of self-identify, IMO.

They're just two separate questions. Saying someone is male says absolutely nothing about their self-identity.

 

[Ron Obvious]

They're just two separate questions. Saying someone is male says absolutely nothing about their self-identity.

Indeed. As their self-identity does not apply to their physical sex either. I'm fine if people stop blurring this distinction.

 

[Thermal]

They're just two separate questions. Saying someone is male says absolutely nothing about their self-identity.

Oddly, thats what both "sides" are arguing, but the conservative leaning side says that internal ID doesn't matter 90% of the time, and the liberal leaning side says that it is all that matters 90 (and often 100)% of the time.

I've knowingly been acquainted with one trans woman over a long period. As a teen, he was "Bob", and identified as a gay male. Moving into adulthood, he came out as trans, and became "Babette". Over a course of years, got surgeries and hormone therapy and the works. At the beginning of the transition, he was registering with me as "Bob in a wig and dress", a "he". It took a while to register that Bob was a woman now. Today, she's a woman to me and I only remember her as a male when I see a pic on the wall of her when she was a he on his baseball team.

Point being, a lot of us are arguing that we are not choosing how to see them. It's just how they are registering. It's what we experience, and being told to deny your very demonstrable reality for an idea in someone else's head is disconcerting.

 

[Roboramma]

Oddly, thats what both "sides" are arguing, but the conservative leaning side says that internal ID doesn't matter 90% of the time, and the liberal leaning side says that it is all that matters 90 (and often 100)% of the time.

I'm probably on the conservative leaning side of this particular issue, but I think that at least in many cases I'm happy with the view that gender identity matters more 90% of the time. I just think that other 10% still exists and is often important.

However, I've been trying to avoid actually discussing the topic that, for reasons I don't fully agree with, has been sequestered to a single thread, so I'll leave it at that.

I've knowingly been acquainted with one trans woman over a long period. As a teen, he was "Bob", and identified as a gay male. Moving into adulthood, he came out as trans, and became "Babette". Over a course of years, got surgeries and hormone therapy and the works. At the beginning of the transition, he was registering with me as "Bob in a wig and dress", a "he". It took a while to register that Bob was a woman now. Today, she's a woman to me and I only remember her as a male when I see a pic on the wall of her when she was a he on his baseball team.

Point being, a lot of us are arguing that we are not choosing how to see them. It's just how they are registering. It's what we experience, and being told to deny your very demonstrable reality for an idea in someone else's head is disconcerting.

All of this seems reasonable to me.

 

[ahhell]

Oddly, thats what both "sides" are arguing, but the conservative leaning side says that internal ID doesn't matter 90% of the time, and the liberal leaning side says that it is all that matters 90 (and often 100)% of the time.

And as with most issues, I suspect most people are in between and think they both matter and which is more important changes based on the situation.

I've knowingly been acquainted with one trans woman over a long period. As a teen, he was "Bob", and identified as a gay male. Moving into adulthood, he came out as trans, and became "Babette". Over a course of years, got surgeries and hormone therapy and the works. At the beginning of the transition, he was registering with me as "Bob in a wig and dress", a "he". It took a while to register that Bob was a woman now. Today, she's a woman to me and I only remember her as a male when I see a pic on the wall of her when she was a he on his baseball team.

Point being, a lot of us are arguing that we are not choosing how to see them. It's just how they are registering. It's what we experience, and being told to deny your very demonstrable reality for an idea in someone else's head is disconcerting.

I'd argue sometimes is being asked to deny reality and sometime its being asked to deny what's in your head because of what's in their head, which at the most is a tie.

 

[Thermal]

I'm probably on the conservative leaning side of this particular issue, but I think that at least in many cases I'm happy with the view that gender identity matters more 90% of the time. I just think that other 10% still exists and is often important.

However, I've been trying to avoid actually discussing the topic that, for reasons I don't fully agree with, has been sequestered to a single thread, so I'll leave it at that.

Preach. It's an intriguing topic that I'd really like to get a better handle on, but That Thread has made it untouchable.

All of this seems reasonable to me.

I feel like it gets glossed over amidst the banshee screeching of "why do you afraid of trans people, you bigot???" It's not a chosen POV. Some of us have heads that are wired to see he/she in terms of bio sex. Redefining ID with highly imprecise language falls kind of flat. But we have to reach our somewhere to get to an understanding. Might as well give it a whirl ITT.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

Funny, that was my first reaction to.
Sure, calling someone them/his/her, what ever they want but the whole neo-pronoun thing, that just dumb and bullying to make me call you Xir or whatever.


Mostly I don't care, I do think its rude to not call folks what they want but its also everyone's right to be rude and there really shouldn't be a federal law mandating politeness. But the actually bad bit, is highlighted. **** that ****, faculty are required to report folks for mocking policy? That is some 1984 authoritarian type stuff.


ETA, this also doesn't say anything about harassment which has already been addressed by Title IX. The way this is written you could get reported for misgendering, mispronouning or mocking university policy just once. Which is almost certainly going to happen to someone.

You think it's bullying to not allow you to bully, insult, denigrate and discriminate against others? You really are some piece of work.

 

[Thermal]

And as with most issues, I suspect most people are in between and think they both matter and which is more important changes based on the situation.

Yeah, the 90% is oversimplified. Shades of gray are everywhere.

I'd argue sometimes is being asked to deny reality and sometime its being asked to deny what's in your head because of what's in their head, which at the most is a tie.

Pretty much, although "Babette" being a he is not internally clocking as reality anymore. She's a woman, even though I know full and well she was born XY male. It *is* my reality, and hers, but it *was* dueling ideas for a while.

I don't know. Hard to spit it out sometimes.

 

[ahhell]

You think it's bullying to not allow you to bully, insult, denigrate and discriminate against others? You really are some piece of work.

That's not what neo pronouns are, mostly they aren't even pronouns. They are a bullying tactic to put folks on the back foot.

I'm not talking about he, her, or singular them as someone may choose but xe/xers, and other nonsense they just made up and you or I have no way to guess what they might be until after the person in question takes offense. Its basically just narcissism to adopt some pronoun that is other than male, female, or gender neutral. How about we just drop he and her instead.

The whole conversation is just a way to bully folks. Almost nobody ever addresses anyone in the room by a pronoun unless they are already being a passive aggressive dick.

 

[Thermal]

That's not what neo pronouns are, mostly they aren't even pronouns. They are a bullying tactic to put folks on the back foot.

I'm not talking about he, her, or singular them as someone may choose but xe/xers, and other nonsense they just made up and you or I have no way to guess what they might be until after the person in question takes offense. Its basically just narcissism to adopt some pronoun that is other than male, female, or gender neutral. How about we just drop he and her instead.

The whole conversation is just a way to bully folks. Almost nobody ever addresses anyone in the room by a pronoun unless they are already being a passive aggressive dick.

Not really. Just picture a group of people given team instructions: "Bob needs to fill out Bob's performance evaluation on Jean, then Bob needs to submit Bob's report to Bob's supervisor, who will verify that Bob met Bob's requirements".

Many classroom discussions will fall along the same lines, where a person present is being referenced to the larger group.

 

[ahhell]

Not really. Just picture a group of people given team instructions: "Bob needs to fill out Bob's performance evaluation on Jean, then Bob needs to submit Bob's report to Bob's supervisor, who will verify that Bob met Bob's requirements".

Many classroom discussions will fall along the same lines, where a person present is being referenced to the larger group.

Bob, you need fill out the evaluation on jean and submit the report to your supervisor.

The only pronoun is the already genderless you. So, I guess you are correct but also, there also no need for new pronouns to avoid offending bob unless bob is looking to be offended.

Talking about bob in the third person when bob is right there is pretty passive aggressive if you ask me.

 

[Thermal]

Bob, you need fill out the evaluation on jean and submit the report to your supervisor.

The only pronoun is the already genderless you. So, I guess you are correct but also, there also no need for new pronouns to avoid offending bob unless bob is looking to be offended.

Talking about bob in the third person when bob is right there is pretty passive aggressive if you ask me.

Agreed that Zhe and xir are "look at me I'm special" bull ****. Use the "they" and call it a day, with no skin off anyone's back.

But to your counterpoint, you might be giving one person instructions while referring to another person's work in the group, who is right there. Calling everyone "you" is going to get messy and cause a crossed wire after a bit.

And it gets more pointed if the group member is not actually there. Then, you are possibly misgendering behind their back, and to their fellow coworkers, which is back door harassment, implying that "they" are not like "us".

 

[Stout]

I feel like it gets glossed over amidst the banshee screeching of "why do you afraid of trans people, you bigot???" It's not a chosen POV. Some of us have heads that are wired to see he/she in terms of bio sex. Redefining ID with highly imprecise language falls kind of flat. But we have to reach our somewhere to get to an understanding. Might as well give it a whirl ITT.

Everybody has a head that's wired to see he/she in terms of bio sex, it's one of the first distinctions we make upon seeing a person. It's done subconsciously and it's done in a fraction of a second and 99% of the time that perception is correct.

Sometimes it's easy to overcome this hardwiring sometimes difficult like making those women who are all weirded out about a penis flopping around in their locker rooms or getting their asses handed to them by transwomen out on the sports field.