Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[smartcooky]

the likes of Rowling were not arrested because the precedents had already been set.

No, the likes of Rowling were not arrested because she dared them to arrest her. The powers that be knew exactly how much of a flash point this issue is, and the last thing they wanted was to turn a very well known, well liked and popular person into a rallying point.

 

[angrysoba]

No, the likes of Rowling were not arrested because she dared them to arrest her. The powers that be knew exactly how much of a flash point this issue is, and the last thing they wanted was to turn a very well known, well liked and popular person into a rallying point.

Assuming that there are laws on the books, is it the role of politicians to get people prosecuted or is it the role of the police and the prosecution service?

My understanding is that these things are meant to be independent of each other but you suggest a conspiracy between them all to first make the actions of Rowling illegal and then to refuse together to prosecute.

 

[smartcooky]

Assuming that there are laws on the books, is it the role of politicians to get people prosecuted or is it the role of the police and the prosecution service?

In a normal world, with normal politics, its supposed to be the prosecutors, but look around you. Are we living in that world right now?
- A world in which a biological male can legally and officially become a women just because they say so? Normal?
- A world in which biological males are allowed to complete against women on the sports field? Normal?
- A world in which biological males can self-ID as women, and then have right of access to women's toilets, showers, shelters and rape crisis centres? Normal?
- A world in which you can be dismissed or fired from your job, de-platformed or even arrested, have you devices confiscated and questioned under caution for the mere fact that you stated an objective, scientific reality? Normal?

My understanding is that these things are meant to be independent of each other but you suggest a conspiracy between them all to first make the actions of Rowling illegal and then to refuse together to prosecute.

A conspiracy against Rowling. Really? Is that what you think I am suggesting?

No, of course not, but I am suggesting an agenda. An agenda, instituted by TRAs, supported by some politicians, media, police and members of the medical profession (who have been ideologically captured by those pushing that agenda) is being foisted up the public with little or no oversight.

 

[angrysoba]

In a normal world, with normal politics, its supposed to be the prosecutors, but look around you. Are we living in that world right now?
- A world in which a biological male can legally and officially become a women just because they say so? Normal?
- A world in which biological males are allowed to complete against women on the sports field? Normal?
- A world in which biological males can self-ID as women, and then have right of access to women's toilets, showers, shelters and rape crisis centres? Normal?
- A world in which you can be dismissed or fired from your job, de-platformed or even arrested, have you devices confiscated and questioned under caution for the mere fact that you stated an objective, scientific reality? Normal?

The prosecutors get to say who gets charge and the legal system who gets convicted indeed. You cannot just appeal to how things don’t look normal to making up what happens in a new world.

A conspiracy against Rowling. Really? Is that what you think I am suggesting?

No, of course not, but I am suggesting an agenda. An agenda, instituted by TRAs, supported by some politicians, media, police and members of the medical profession (who have been ideologically captured by those pushing that agenda) is being foisted up the public with little or no oversight.

The SNP won power in Scotland and therefore get to implement their policies, which was until recently all about Scottish independence and then suddenly became all about showing how much more tolerant they were than the English decided to champion trans rights.

The Scottish public have responded in the way that they get to do by giving the SNP a good kicking at the polls.

 

[Rolfe]

And I have to admit to a slight feeling of satisfaction that I was able to join in that kicking. But mostly to deep sadness that it was necessary to do it.

 

[angrysoba]

And I have to admit to a slight feeling of satisfaction that I was able to join in that kicking. But mostly to deep sadness that it was necessary to do it.

In fact, while we wonder aloud just who it was who was holding that placard, it should be noted that one guy who tweeted out messages about he himself wanted to give TERFs a good kicking was actually made equalities minister after sending the tweets.

He’s since been sentenced to a jail sentence for beating up multiple women.

https://x.com/helenlewis/status/1813475812428951987

 

[Rolfe]

Actually that's not quite true. The guy was only an ordinary branch member, although one who seemed to be well in favour with the party - like all the blue-haired TRAs Nicola begged not to leave in the infamous broom cupboard video. (When I resigned soon after that after 29 years membership and putting a hell of a lot of work into the party, with a detailed list of 20 reasons why I was doing it, I didn't even get an acknowledgement. All that happened was that the emails begging for donations stopped coming.)

Cameron Downing was "elected" as equalities officer of London Branch. That's just a branch committee post, and one that people are usually reluctant to take on. Or at least they were in my day - I was secretary of London Branch for several years in the 1990s. Arms usually have to be twisted, or the post remains vacant. He simply volunteered, and everyone else was glad to let him. Then he moved back to Scotland and the same thing happened in his new branch in Edinburgh.

He was never an MSP, he never held elected office either in local or central government, and he was certainly never a minister of anything. Nevertheless people had been warning the party about him for some time, and were ignored. He claimed to be non-binary, so was one of the Holy Trans, and could do no wrong in the eyes of the party. Including apparently the people now running London Branch, who seem to be completely captured as far as I can see.

Read all about it. The Hiding

ETA: Oh wait, that article suggests the London Branch appointment was after the Edinburgh branch one. He was also an office-bearer in the poisonous "Out For Indy" club. All voluntary positions. I don't think he ever managed to get a position in a central party committee.

 

[angrysoba]

Sorry, I misread Helen Lewis’s tweet. Indeed, an equalities officer, not minister. Thanks.

 

[Rolfe]

It doesn't make a lot of difference to the essential point. He was flavour of the month. Lots of months, actually. It's just a matter of accuracy.

It's another example of what we see all over the place, in organisations and companies and establishments. The Holy Trans can do no wrong (even if clear evidence of wrongdoing is produced) and must always have their wishes met and their complaints pursued to the nth degree, whereas those dreadful TERFs are utterly despicable people who will be harassed without mercy for the terrible crime of annoying the Holy Trans, regardless of what the actual law says.

I don't really understand how we got here, that beliefs that were perfectly commonplace, indeed were taken as read, about ten minutes ago, are suddenly utterly beyond the pale as far as a lot of people are concerned. Not just that, but the degree of vitriol apparently mild and reasonable people will suddenly come out with when they discover that someone believes that there are only two sexes and you can't change sex, and that giving children drugs that will stunt their physical and intellectual growth and render them sterile and anorgasmic is not a good idea, and neither is performing mastectomies on healthy teenagers, and neither is trying to induce lactation in men so that they can get their rocks off trying to feed an infant the drug-laden cocktail of secretions exuded by their nipples, well, when such terrible transphobic beliefs are encountered, just watch the lip curl and the hear the invective begin to flow.

I've had some myself, from my actual recorder tutor at a residential music weekend. I can't remember how it started, a bunch of us were sitting around in the evening, and I said something pretty mild about pronouns, and he didn't even let me finish my sentence before he was telling the group how anyone who thought like that was a horrible, despicable, ****** person.

Sorry, this has gone off at a bit of a tangent, but the wholesale capture of so many levels of society by an idea which is self-evident nonsense and objectively harmful to very many people has become an article of almost religious faith that justifies the equivalent of heretic-burning is the weirdest thing I ever encountered. It makes tulip bulbs and recovered memories and lobotomy and satanic abuse look like quite understandable mistakes.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I note that rolfe has yet to provide any sources, or further details, for these stories.
Are we now openly abandoning any pretence of scepticism? Do we just blindly accept unsourced anecdotes because they fit our prior conclusions? Is that what we're doing now?

 

[smartcooky]

The prosecutors get to say who gets charge and the legal system who gets convicted indeed. You cannot just appeal to how things don’t look normal to making up what happens in a new world.

I can.... and I did

The SNP won power in Scotland and therefore get to implement their policies, which was until recently all about Scottish independence and then suddenly became all about showing how much more tolerant they were than the English decided to champion trans rights.

Yes, as I said, an agenda

The Scottish public have responded in the way that they get to do by giving the SNP a good kicking at the polls.

Nonetheless, my point is still valid. There is an agenda here!

 

[angrysoba]

The prosecutors get to say who gets charge and the legal system who gets convicted indeed. You cannot just appeal to how things don’t look normal to making up what happens in a new world.

I can.... and I did

Okay, well I suppose you can just make things up, but there's no reason to believe you if you admit to it.

 

[smartcooky]

I note that rolfe has yet to provide any sources, or further details, for these stories.
Are we now openly abandoning any pretence of scepticism? Do we just blindly accept unsourced anecdotes because they fit our prior conclusions? Is that what we're doing now?

Well here's one... Caroline Farrow

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...t-catholic-mother-malicious-online-posts.html

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/20012374/moment-police-swoop-on-mum-arrest/

Of course, I expect you will reject these sources.

 

[Rolfe]

He already did.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Well here's one... Caroline Farrow

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...t-catholic-mother-malicious-online-posts.html

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/20012374/moment-police-swoop-on-mum-arrest/

Of course, I expect you will reject these sources.

He already did.

No, I didn't. Here's my post, quoted in full to highlight the dishonesty or poor reading comprehension evident in smartcooky & rolfe's posts:

Look at what happened to Caroline Farrow, the wife of a Catholic priest who was actually playing the organ in church at the time certain tweets were alleged to have been sent, who has been the subject of repeated police harrasment on account of someone who really ought to be classed as a vexatious litigant repeatedly lodging complaints about her. They wanted all her electronic devices, and I think even her children's, and applied for some sort of bail conditions to be applied to her even though she hadn't even been charged with anything never mind convicted.

It is notable that the only references I can find to this case are from either right-wing sources such as GB News and the Daily Mail, or from Catholic/evangelist Christian ones. And the notorious Epoch Times. All are heavily biased. I have been unable to find any balanced reporting of this incident, which makes me a little suspicious. Most of it relies mainly on Farrow's own account.Farrow was a member and regular poster on Kiwi Farms, a truly unpleasant website. It is quite possible that she did post things that crossed the line into hate speech: I have also not been able to find out what she said in the comments that prompted the complaint. Just saying that on a sceptics' forum, a nod in the direction of scepticism is merited once in a while.
As this case is 2 years old, and nothing seems to have happened, I assume she was released without charge. Again, before the screaming starts, this doesn't justify the police action per se, but it does reinforce my point that these attempts have failed every time. Again, it is my hope that this kind of situation will stop happening, once the police get their act together and stop overreacting to things that are not crimes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms

Or the disabled woman in Glasgow who was hauled into a police station for questioning, then turned loose at three in the morning to make her own way home on her mobility scooter, without her phone (which they kept). I know of another case, not about the trans issue, but with similar connotations. A poster on Twitter referred to a journalist (if you can call someone who writes for the Scottish Daily Express a journalist) as "an absolute disgrace" or something like that.

Have you got names or sources for these two stories?

Hightlighted 1: the Daily Mail article relies entirely on Farrow's own account, just as I said. I would like some more balanced reporting. "Suspicious' does not mean 'rejecting', and for posters here to suddenly start accepting the Daily Fail as a reliable source just shows the level of knee-jerk antagonism and confirmation bias being levelled at me.
Do you know, from the DM article, what the posts were? No, we don't.
I was, finally, able to find out what it was that she posted.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/caroline-farrow-arrested-kiwi-farms/

Caroline Farrow, a campaign director for an ultra-conservative anti-trans group, was arrested at her home after doxxing and misgendering a trans woman who she’s spent years harassing. She’s also accused of posting a hate-filled cartoon on the notorious message board Kiwi Farms, where she is one of the very few people who have a verified account.
But Farrow’s claims had real-world consequences. A day after her interview aired, Stephanie Hayden, a lawyer and trans activist who has been a target of Farrow’s harassment for years, received a phone call from the police telling her that there had been a credible threat of arson against her.

A bit different from the 'innocent devout Catholic housewife' picture Farrow paints of herself, don't you think? That's why I was asking for more balanced reporting.

Hightlighted 2: These are the stories I was asking for sources for, as there are no details, and we are forced to rely on rolfe's own memory of what actually happened.
A more careful reading of my post would have made it clear I was after balanced reporting for the Farrow story: I actually said that I'd seen the report in the DM. smartcooky's links were not actually what I was asking for. It would have been clear, again with a more careful reading of my post, that I wanted actual sources for the second two stories. However, as I've repeatedly complained here, you guys are not reading my posts fully, or carefully, or- in rolfe's case- sometimes not at all, and then leaping in to comment on things you don't actually fully comprehend.

 

[Pixel42]

The SNP won power in Scotland and therefore get to implement their policies, which was until recently all about Scottish independence and then suddenly became all about showing how much more tolerant they were than the English decided to champion trans rights.

This is something that's been bugging me for a while.

Rights are what every person in a society should have. Historically some citizens have been denied certain rights because of accidents of birth - women didn't have many of the rights men had, many people didn't have the right to love and marry those it came naturally to them to love and marry, people of colour were unfairly discriminated against, etc etc. These groups had to fight for the rights everyone else already had.

People who are transgender are not denied any of the rights that everyone else has, at least in the UK. That doesn't mean they don't encounter prejudice, of course, sadly they do, and so do the groups I just mentioned, but that prejudice is not enshrined in, and protected by, law.

The things TRAs demand to be allowed to do are things which no-one is currently allowed to do - access the sex segregated spaces of the opposite sex, compete in the sex segregated sports leagues of the opposite sex etc. It bugs me when the term "trans rights" is used to describe those demands.

 

[Manger Douse]

No, I didn't. Here's my post, quoted in full to highlight the dishonesty or poor reading comprehension evident in smartcooky & rolfe's posts:



Hightlighted 1: the Daily Mail article relies entirely on Farrow's own account, just as I said. I would like some more balanced reporting. "Suspicious' does not mean 'rejecting', and for posters here to suddenly start accepting the Daily Fail as a reliable source just shows the level of knee-jerk antagonism and confirmation bias being levelled at me.
Do you know, from the DM article, what the posts were? No, we don't.
I was, finally, able to find out what it was that she posted.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/caroline-farrow-arrested-kiwi-farms/


A bit different from the 'innocent devout Catholic housewife' picture Farrow paints of herself, don't you think? That's why I was asking for more balanced reporting.

Hightlighted 2: These are the stories I was asking for sources for, as there are no details, and we are forced to rely on rolfe's own memory of what actually happened.
A more careful reading of my post would have made it clear I was after balanced reporting for the Farrow story: I actually said that I'd seen the report in the DM. smartcooky's links were not actually what I was asking for. It would have been clear, again with a more careful reading of my post, that I wanted actual sources for the second two stories. However, as I've repeatedly complained here, you guys are not reading my posts fully, or carefully, or- in rolfe's case- sometimes not at all, and then leaping in to comment on things you don't actually fully comprehend.

Vice aren't above putting their own spin on things either

 

[smartcooky]

No, I didn't. Here's my post, quoted in full to highlight the dishonesty or poor reading comprehension evident in smartcooky & rolfe's posts:



Hightlighted 1: the Daily Mail article relies entirely on Farrow's own account, just as I said. I would like some more balanced reporting. "Suspicious' does not mean 'rejecting', and for posters here to suddenly start accepting the Daily Fail as a reliable source just shows the level of knee-jerk antagonism and confirmation bias being levelled at me.
Do you know, from the DM article, what the posts were? No, we don't.
I was, finally, able to find out what it was that she posted.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/caroline-farrow-arrested-kiwi-farms/


A bit different from the 'innocent devout Catholic housewife' picture Farrow paints of herself, don't you think? That's why I was asking for more balanced reporting.

Hightlighted 2: These are the stories I was asking for sources for, as there are no details, and we are forced to rely on rolfe's own memory of what actually happened.
A more careful reading of my post would have made it clear I was after balanced reporting for the Farrow story: I actually said that I'd seen the report in the DM. smartcooky's links were not actually what I was asking for. It would have been clear, again with a more careful reading of my post, that I wanted actual sources for the second two stories. However, as I've repeatedly complained here, you guys are not reading my posts fully, or carefully, or- in rolfe's case- sometimes not at all, and then leaping in to comment on things you don't actually fully comprehend.

VICE are trans-ideology captured media. You understand that, right?

 

[Rolfe]

If this was an isolated case it might be a different story. Caroline Farrow is outspoken and sometimes confrontational. Maybe she did something to provoke what seems on the face of it some entirely uncalled-for behaviour. But it isn't. Case after case. Not just women, either. Complaints from TRAs treated with the utmost seriousness, even when trivial or unreasonable on the the face of it, and people being subjected to police harassment and even arrest for entirely legal speech. Meanwhile serious threats of violence and even death threats made by TRAs are dismissed as hyperbole, "he was only joking around", "he didn't mean it", and so on.

 

[smartcooky]

Vice aren't above putting their own spin on things either

"Putting their own spin on things" is putting it very, very generously.

VICE are firmly in the Trans Activism camp.