Merged Economics, politics and the election

[rdwight]

Total Nonsense. There is little doubt that multinational corporations abuse tax systems and leverage wages and taxes to their advantage. This is why in particular why Biden was attempting to pass an international minimum corporate tax rate. Something Republicans universally oppose. What difference does our income make when it's not enough for housing, food, transportation and other essentials?

Do you have a damn clue about how skyrocketing housing, medical, food and transportation costs has made millions of Americans homeless or living from paycheck to paycheck?

You once again sidestep what I wrote. You can go PPP if you want, the data still shows USA in the top 10, with all others being comparably small countries. On your other points.. ACA has been law for 14 years. If medical costs is skyrocketing, can we call it a success? Food, transportation, I am not on board with the rhetoric. You can say staples are up 50% and act like that is what is hurting Americans, but if milk goes from $3 to $4, chicken goes from $2 to $3, etc that is not where people are getting hurt. If you do the shopping, you already would see this. Its preprocessed stuff that is ballooning, and people arent adapting their spending habits quickly enough.

Energy costs are hurting everything though, so more plans to address that will help. If transportation means that then I am on board. If you mean car prices, that market has already tumbled.

The one you will hear no argument from me on is housing, and I think that is the major aspect that everyone is hurting on that wasn't already a homeowner before. For the 60% that were though, I don't think they have much to complain about.

Indeed. My income is pretty good. Even adjusting for inflation I'm making more than my father was at my age. But I can't afford to buy a house, where he not only bought houses but supported a stay-at-home wife and two children, and we lived pretty nicely: orthodontistry, college, etc. And my grandfather was a blue-collar worker who supported three children and a stay-at-home wife on a salary that even adjusted for inflation seems laughably small.

It's upsetting that I'm doing everything I'm supposed to: higher ed, professional job, living well within my means, not splurging, saving and investing....and I'm still worse off than financially illiterate people making less money forty and sixty years ago!

I don't disagree, but like i said above, housing seems to be the worst of it. I have that same outlook for past generations, but I wouldn't compare spending habits as if they are equal. We get far more for our dollar and we consume far more. It's not like entertainment spending is why housing has become unaffordable though. Places I looked at 3 years ago are DOUBLE the price. With current rates. Insanity.

I am reminded that the only reason I post in politics is because there is an audience. I did not actually claim the left has been more hostile the right, I just claim they have been. I get it, if you are for progress, anyone that disagrees with you must be for regress, if you are anti-fascist, anyone that disagrees with you must be a fascist. Makes sense.

I wouldn't mind it if there was actual engagement with ideas. Some people seem to need to blow off steam. But there is no discussion to be had. For example plenty of discussion of tax increases on the rich. If we pick taxing unrealized gains over $5 million at death and an increase on capital gains to be taxed the same as income, what are the numbers in regards to how much it would generate? Since it's a Biden proposal, we actually have some. $221 billion from 2025-2034.

A decent amount, but not exactly something that could fund every social program being proposed. For example Harris's 25k homebuyers credit would cost $100 billion, over just 4 years. But explaining that means I hate the poor, am a boot licker, etc.

 

[ahhell]

To the extent that Trump has economic policies they were born in the 80s and of ignorance. He really seems to think trade deficits are a bad thing and tariffs are a good thing. That is about the only policy he seems to actually have attachment to.

 

[Resume]

To the extent that Trump has economic policies they were born in the 80s and of ignorance. He really seems to think trade deficits are a bad thing and tariffs are a good thing. That is about the only policy he seems to actually have attachment to.

Yeah okay, but he has economic advisers that can . . . never mind.

 

[Brainster]

Harris: $25,000 down payment assistance for first-time homebuyers. It's a nice-sounding idea, and in a declining market it might make sense, helping to prop up prices. However, in a period of rising prices as we've seen for the last few years, it may just increase demand without providing new supply, which will lead to higher prices.

Trump: 10-20% tariff on imports, and 60% tariff on Chinese imports. Easily the worst idea from either candidate. The hope seems to be to encourage domestic manufacturing and bring back those good-paying blue-collar jobs. In practice it will just lead to another round of inflation, and likely result in retaliatory tariffs.

Harris: Price controls on groceries. The Washington Post editorial board slammed this as a gimmick, and that's exactly what it is; one of their columnists noted that if your opposition is calling you a communist you might not want to lean into it with price controls.

Trump & Harris: No taxes on tips. I confess I didn't understand how annoying the IRS policy on this is until I looked it up:

Employees must keep a daily record of the cash tips they receive. They can use Form 4070A, Employee's Daily Record of Tips, which is included in Publication 1244, Employee's Daily Record of Tips and Report of Tips to Employer, to keep daily track of the cash tips they receive.

They should also keep a record of the date and value of any noncash tips, such as tickets, passes or other items of value. Although they don't report noncash tips to their employer, they must report them on their tax return.

Employees must report tips to the employer by the 10th of the month following the month the tips were received.

The employee can use Form 4070, Employee's Report of Tips to Employer, available in Publication 1244, an employer-provided form or other electronic system used by their employer as long as it includes the above elements required for reporting.

As a practical matter, I suspect most tipped employees just report enough tips so they are effectively receiving minimum wage.

Trump: End taxes on Social Security benefits. Currently only applies to those making more than a preset limit ($25,000 for singles, $32,000 for couples). Another "sounds great" proposal that has a big but:

The Social Security retirement trust fund would be depleted more than a year earlier, and Medicare’s hospital insurance trust fund would run dry six years earlier.

 

[CarbShark]

They disagree on the specifics of the tariffs they want? They disagree on the exact nature of taxes they want to reduce? Harris may or may not support some sort of price controls, I suspect trump is ok with that depending on the prices in question though.

Protections against price gouging are not price controls. Many states (especially those in tornado and hurricane zones, so a lot of states) have price gouging laws to protect people when there are sudden shortages of goods for whatever reason (like toilet paper during the pandemic). These are enforced by each state's AGs.

She's advocating the same kinds of laws on a Federal scale.


Also, as far as price controls go, the Republicans are masters of those, they just don't publicize it that much. The USDA works closely with farmer (mostly large corporations now) to determine what crops to grow each season and how much to grow.

This is done in order to keep prices UP.

 

[ahhell]

Protections against price gouging are not price controls. Many states (especially those in tornado and hurricane zones, so a lot of states) have price gouging laws to protect people when there are sudden shortages of goods for whatever reason (like toilet paper during the pandemic). These are enforced by each state's AGs.

She's advocating the same kinds of laws on a Federal scale.


Also, as far as price controls go, the Republicans are masters of those, they just don't publicize it that much. The USDA works closely with farmer (mostly large corporations now) to determine what crops to grow each season and how much to grow.

This is done in order to keep prices UP.

Nothing you said there is wrong, except that they are a bad idea even when it comes to disasters. Like I said, it not like trump is exactly opposed to them as far as I can tell. So, in terms of a difference between trump and harris. Maybe? Probably not?

ETA: also, limits on price gouging are price controls so, you are wrong about that too but it's a trivial mistake.

On the tip thing, sure why not waive taxes on cash tips, it's not like those are declared accurately anyway. I used to always tip in cash just so the folks getting them could lie about how much they earned. Otherwise, it will just result in more folks moving payments from some other sort of accounting into calling them tips instead.

 

[ahhell]

Yeah okay, but he has economic advisers that can . . . never mind.

Trump = Lucy Trump's advisors = Charlie Brown.

 

[dudalb]

Frankly, I don't like tariffs, period. I theink the days when they coul protect jobs in the uS< if they ever did...are over.
Protectionism a bad idea that ,sadly, has followers on both sides of the political spectrum.

 

[mumblethrax]

The no-tax-on-tips thing is such a funny thing to run on. It reminds me of Al Franken's book where he runs for president by campaigning against ATM fees. Except that probably made more sense.

 

[dudalb]

ANyway, the main economic issue will be inflation.

 

[CarbShark]

Harris: $25,000 down payment assistance for first-time homebuyers. It's a nice-sounding idea, and in a declining market it might make sense, helping to prop up prices. However, in a period of rising prices as we've seen for the last few years, it may just increase demand without providing new supply, which will lead to higher prices.

She also has a plan for building millions of new homes.

Trump: 10-20% tariff on imports, and 60% tariff on Chinese imports. Easily the worst idea from either candidate. The hope seems to be to encourage domestic manufacturing and bring back those good-paying blue-collar jobs. In practice it will just lead to another round of inflation, and likely result in retaliatory tariffs.

Harris: Price controls on groceries. The Washington Post editorial board slammed this as a gimmick, and that's exactly what it is; one of their columnists noted that if your opposition is calling you a communist you might not want to lean into it with price controls.

That opinion piece is misrepresenting the facts. See my previous post. She protecting consumers from price gouging.

As for the claims about inflation, that is now undercontrol. But, yes, prices have not gone down, that would be deflation which is a worse economic indicator than moderate inflation. Last time we had deflation was during the COVID shutdown, and yes prices were lower then.

The other factor is that after prices go up (following the supply chain collapse and other lasting economic impacts from the pandemic) wages and other compensation (SS) follow.

Trump & Harris: No taxes on tips. I confess I didn't understand how annoying the IRS policy on this is until I looked it up:

As a practical matter, I suspect most tipped employees just report enough tips so they are effectively receiving minimum wage.

Based on what?

Now that we've moved to a largely cashless system most tips are added to the bill and paid electronically, via credit cards etc. When they were getting mostly cash tips you may be right, that they weren't reporting every dime left on the table, but now they are reporting them, and their employers are witholding taxes. They have no choice but to report nearly all their tips (except for those from the few who do leave cash).

Trump: End taxes on Social Security benefits. Currently only applies to those making more than a preset limit ($25,000 for singles, $32,000 for couples). Another "sounds great" proposal that has a big but:

I think they should do that, and to account for the lost income they should elimination the cap on payroll tax for the wealthy and middle class. That would shore up the system. (Trump is not proposing that and never will, I hope Harris does)

 

[acbytesla]

You once again sidestep what I wrote. You can go PPP if you want, the data still shows USA in the top 10, with all others being comparably small countries. On your other points.. ACA has been law for 14 years. If medical costs is skyrocketing, can we call it a success? Food, transportation, I am not on board with the rhetoric. You can say staples are up 50% and act like that is what is hurting Americans, but if milk goes from $3 to $4, chicken goes from $2 to $3, etc that is not where people are getting hurt. If you do the shopping, you already would see this. Its preprocessed stuff that is ballooning, and people arent adapting their spending habits quickly enough.

No question medical costs are skyrocketing but less so under ACA. And it has been staunch Republican policy to protect Big Medical and Big Pharma as much as possible. And what do you mean rhetoric? I presented the rise in true transportation, and housing costs. Not just the cost of fuel but the cost of vehicles

Energy costs are hurting everything though, so more plans to address that will help. If transportation means that then I am on board. If you mean car prices, that market has already tumbled.

It has come down a little recently. That much is true. But it has still climbed significantly as it relates to income.

The one you will hear no argument from me on is housing, and I think that is the major aspect that everyone is hurting on that wasn't already a homeowner before. For the 60% that were though, I don't think they have much to complain about.

At least we agree on this. I'm not that big a fan of subsidizing down payments for first time buyers as much as I'd like to see nationwide reforms in zoning and HOAs. But I get why they propose it.

I don't disagree, but like i said above, housing seems to be the worst of it. I have that same outlook for past generations, but I wouldn't compare spending habits as if they are equal. We get far more for our dollar and we consume far more. It's not like entertainment spending is why housing has become unaffordable though. Places I looked at 3 years ago are DOUBLE the price. With current rates. Insanity.

I do agree that housing is the worst of it. But there are still huge issues across the board.
Yes there are bright spots. But almost all of it is in luxury items and electronics. It's insane how inexpensive those things can be.

However, when it comes to the staples, housing, transportation, food and medical expenses it is unaffordable.

I wouldn't mind it if there was actual engagement with ideas. Some people seem to need to blow off steam. But there is no discussion to be had. For example plenty of discussion of tax increases on the rich. If we pick taxing unrealized gains over $5 million at death and an increase on capital gains to be taxed the same as income, what are the numbers in regards to how much it would generate? Since it's a Biden proposal, we actually have some. $221 billion from 2025-2034.

A decent amount, but not exactly something that could fund every social program being proposed. For example Harris's 25k homebuyers credit would cost $100 billion, over just 4 years. But explaining that means I hate the poor, am a boot licker, etc.

I didn't say that. And if you look at my history, it is almost always fairly even keel.

I don't trust Republicans at all. But that doesn't mean they can't be reasonable. Still, they go crazy about the debt and at the same time propose tax cuts that help the wealthy. Ever since Ronald Reagan proposed that we cut taxes, increase military spending and at the same time reduce the deficit. Something his running mate described as "voodoo economics." Of course H.W. Bush was right. The debt ballooned. Republicans only care about the debt when it means actually helping people. For decades I heard Republicans cry about the National Debt and the negative effects. But for three years Clinton balanced the budget and was on pace to eliminate the National Debt by 2025. What did George W Bush do when he took over? He cut taxes and increased military expenses and ushered in the biggest financial crisis since The Great Depression.

 

[Stacyhs]

From post #6:

"Harris: Price controls on groceries. The Washington Post editorial board slammed this as a gimmick, and that's exactly what it is; one of their columnists noted that if your opposition is calling you a communist you might not want to lean into it with price controls."
Trump has used the "socialist-communist' as standard rhetoric for years. It's nothing new for him.

Trump’s effort to brand his political opponents and those who now would hold him to account for his alleged criminal conduct as communists has been a through line of his rhetoric since he became a major political figure in 2015. In October of that year, he called Sen. Bernie Sanders, then a candidate for the Democratic nomination for president, “a socialist-slash-communist ... He’s going to tax you people at 90 percent; he’s going to take everything!”

Trump continued his red baiting throughout his term in the White House.

At a September 2020 White House event honoring Cuban-American veterans of the ill-fated, 1961 Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba Trump repeated that promise and branded his political opponents radical “Marxists.”

“When you look at the kind of ideology we are also facing ...” Trump told the appreciative audience, “we did not fight tyranny abroad only to let Marxists destroy our beloved country.”
During his 2020 reelection campaign he told a rally of supporters in Vandalia, Ohio, “The choice in November is going to be very simple. There’s never been a time when there’s been such a difference. One is probably communism. I don’t know. They keep saying socialism. I think they’ve gone over that one. That one’s passed already.”

Three years later, reviving the Red Scare also is part of Trump’s 2024 electoral strategy. It works for at least three reasons.
First, it is designed to appeal to older voters who remember the days when the phrase “Better Dead Than Red” signaled solidarity among white people in this country against a common enemy.

Second, it stirs up fears of China, today’s most prominent and powerful communist nation.

Finally, this language has special meaning in South Florida, where the former president is under federal indictment. It’s no accident that Trump reacted to his arraignment in the classified documents case on June 13 by waving the bloody flag of communism and describing the threat it allegedly poses.
“If the communists get away with this,” he said in a speech later that day, “it won’t stop with me. They will not hesitate to ramp up their persecution of Christians, pro-life activists, parents attending school board meetings, and even future Republican candidates.”

Whatever his motivations, Trump’s kind of red baiting has a long lineage. It is right out of the playbook of authoritarians and tyrants from the early 20th century. It was instrumental in the rise of fascist leaders in mid-century Germany and Italy. Like them, today’s strongmen and would-be strongmen like the former president need powerful “us” versus “them” narratives, and communism is a tried and true boogeyman. It works, as columnist John P. Baird has argued, “to narrow the spectrum of what it is possible to achieve politically. It has historically been used against all kinds of change agents.”

 

[ahhell]

Meh, the right uses socialist and communist as a slur the left uses fascist and even nazi, meh. This isn't new. I'd also argue that price controls aren't even a left exclusive thing, folks on both right and left have used them to bad result for decades or even centuries.

Sure, price controls that limit gouging are different, if you say so.

 

[dudalb]

Meh, the right uses socialist and communist as a slur the left uses fascist and even nazi, meh. This isn't new. I'd also argue that price controls aren't even a left exclusive thing, folks on both right and left have used them to bad result for decades or even centuries.

Sure, price controls that limit gouging are different, if you say so.

Problem with Price COntrols is they simply don't work very well.

 

[Brainster]

ANyway, the main economic issue will be inflation.

The funny thing is that inflation is mostly tamed, but I am afraid that voters may not realize it, because Joe Biden has been saying for awhile now that he expects prices to come down. That's not what happens; instead prices will rise less rapidly.

 

[dudalb]

From post #6:

"Harris: Price controls on groceries. The Washington Post editorial board slammed this as a gimmick, and that's exactly what it is; one of their columnists noted that if your opposition is calling you a communist you might not want to lean into it with price controls."
Trump has used the "socialist-communist' as standard rhetoric for years. It's nothing new for him.

I am skeptical about price controls since they have ahistory of not really working all that well, but I could do without the McCarthy red baiting, thank you.

 

[Brainster]

She also has a plan for building millions of new homes.

I hope you mean that she has a plan to entice developers to build millions of new homes?

That opinion piece is misrepresenting the facts. See my previous post. She protecting consumers from price gouging.

You noted that laws already exist against price-gouging in states subject to natural disasters. Why is a federal law needed? Answer: Because it's a pretend solution to the inflation of the last four years. Kamala and Joe have both been claiming that inflation is just due to corporate greed. We both know that's a load of BS, but it sells like hotcakes to the economic illiterates. And she's going to take care of it by limiting price increases when she feels it constitutes gouging. The WaPo had it right; it's just a gimmick.

 

[Brainster]

I am skeptical about price controls since they have ahistory of not really working all that well, but I could do without the McCarthy red baiting, thank you.

Take it up with the Washington Post's Catherine Rampell (who is pretty reliably liberal). She knows it's a bad idea, and either she or the headline writer provided the "when your opponent calls you 'communist', maybe don't propose price controls," quote. Anyway, I don't think there's much doubt that Trump is calling Kamala a communist.

 

[dirtywick]

when an idiot is calling you communist, don’t do what an idiot would confuse with communism. that is unfortunately a monumental task