Merged Economics, politics and the election

[acbytesla]

A great example of Donald Trump's tax policies and business prowess is staring everyone in the face. I'm talking about Trump International Hotel Tower. A building Trump declared in 2004 to be worth 1.8 billion dollars. This same building in 2008 Trump declared was a total loss and obtained a 73 million dollar tax refund on. This is more money than he paid in total in 6 consecutive altogether. He also then transferred ownership to another Trump shell company and declared another 150 million dollars in losses. Double dipping. And he got away with this. This shows that our tax policies are a joke. It shows that Trump is a terrible business person. Why do morons think this guy is great?

 

[rdwight]

And yet they pay less in percentage of their total income. Add sales taxes, gas taxes, Federal excise taxes, property taxes,, FICA, other government fees, etc.

Warren Buffett, one of the wealthiest human beings on the planet says our tax structure is grossly out of whack. He pays less in the percentage of his income in taxes than his secretary. A lot less.

But thanks for making my point. As Willie Sutton said, "they are the ones with all the money."

No, they don't. What are you basing this on? The words of Warren Buffet alone, who's tax situation is unique even among top earners? I care very little about his performative altruism in regards to taxes. Nothing is stopping him from paying more in taxes besides the will to do so. He could willingly send what he feels is fair. He doesn't.

Yes, won't someone think of the rich?!

I'm right there with you buddy, I too like the taste of shoes.

Sounds like someone didn't get his allowance this week.

The way the wages have gone, there is nothing to tax at the low end. The people do not make enough to pay much more than normal living expenses. They can afford to lose the cell phone and internet. That's it. There is nothing else to cut.

The rich must be taking a lot by having all these tens of millions work for slave labor. And they still need the poor. Someone has to buy their product.

US falls under the major EU countries in minimum wage. Finland Sweden and Denmark are missing. Two do not use euros. Finland is 1200-1300.
https://qery.no/minimum-wage-levels-in-the-eu-2024/

The average American is incredibly wealthy. By mean or median income, we are in the top 3 in the world. When it comes to white collar professions most European workers envy the compensation we have here.

As for minimum wage, its a silly metric. It is comprised mainly of young people, part time workers, and people in hospitality ie people that get paid at or below minimum wage but are compensated in tips not counted towards this measurement. And even for those few that are head of households earning at or near it, they have access to an array of public services that would push them far above the threshold. Think section 8, Snap, medicaid, free phone service etc. It's not wages but it feels like there is a distortion to what it is actually like to be poor in the US.

Still no comment on who is considered rich and how much taxes they should pay. Again, i don't think much thought is put into this.

 

[rdwight]

Wealth inequality is the only real topic of the election: votes want to know under which candidate they will have more disposable income.

Democrats don't want that to be the topic of discussion. Polling shows Harris behind Trump on trust to handle the economy and inflation. If there is any economic downturn before the election it will inevitably hurt her with voters. She still has time to gain on this but it will come down to what plans she puts forward and how voters react to them.

 

[acbytesla]

No, they don't. What are you basing this on? The words of Warren Buffet alone, who's tax situation is unique even among top earners? I care very little about his performative altruism in regards to taxes. Nothing is stopping him from paying more in taxes besides the will to do so. He could willingly send what he feels is fair. He doesn't.

Yes THEY DO. And my guess is Warren Buffet understands the tax code and how it applies to investments than either you or I ever will.

 

[rdwight]

Yes THEY DO. And my guess is Warren Buffet understands the tax code and how it applies to investments than either you or I ever will.

Again, we are back to vibes. What do you base this on besides the word of one guy referring to his own specific circumstances? It shouldn't be this hard to have a discussion on something with countless organizations that crunch the numbers yearly to rely on.

 

[acbytesla]

The average American is incredibly wealthy. By mean or median income, we are in the top 3 in the world. When it comes to white collar professions most European workers envy the compensation we have here.

As for minimum wage, its a silly metric. It is comprised mainly of young people, part time workers, and people in hospitality ie people that get paid at or below minimum wage but are compensated in tips not counted towards this measurement. And even for those few that are head of households earning at or near it, they have access to an array of public services that would push them far above the threshold. Think section 8, Snap, medicaid, free phone service etc. It's not wages but it feels like there is a distortion to what it is actually like to be poor in the US.

Total Nonsense. There is little doubt that multinational corporations abuse tax systems and leverage wages and taxes to their advantage. This is why in particular why Biden was attempting to pass an international minimum corporate tax rate. Something Republicans universally oppose. What difference does our income make when it's not enough for housing, food, transportation and other essentials?

Do you have a damn clue about how skyrocketing housing, medical, food and transportation costs has made millions of Americans homeless or living from paycheck to paycheck? While at the same time Paul Allen, Larry Ellison, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates spent two billion dollars on boats. Ever notice the people on the corners panhandling? How about how much is spent on private jets? And I'm not even scratching the surface of the insane purchases that would be better spent by the middle class or the poor.

Income and wealth disparity is the cause of many of our economic problems. But not all. I agree with Republicans about over regulation causes problems. But almost certainly not the regulations they complain about. But the biggest problem is income and wealth disparity. And the reason it is, is because it redirects industries to cater to the wealthy.

This is how you can tell that the rich make too much and the rest of us don't make enough.

 

[Ziggurat]

Do you have a damn clue about how skyrocketing housing, medical, food and transportation costs has made millions of Americans homeless or living from paycheck to paycheck?

That's just it: those costs have skyrocketed. If they hadn't skyrocketed, a lot of people's incomes would be enough.

So why did they skyrocket? It's not because of Jeff Bezos. It's not because the federal government isn't taking enough in taxes.

 

[acbytesla]

From 1981 to 1990, the change in mean family income ranged from a loss of 0.1% annually for families in the lowest quintile (the bottom 20% of earners) to a gain of 2.1% annually for families in the highest quintile (the top 20%). The top 5% of families, who are part of the highest quintile, fared even better – their income increased at the rate of 3.2% annually from 1981 to 1990. Thus, the 1980s marked the beginning of a long and steady rise in income inequality

.

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/

 

[acbytesla]

That's just it: those costs have skyrocketed. If they hadn't skyrocketed, a lot of people's incomes would be enough.

So why did they skyrocket? It's not because of Jeff Bezos. It's not because the federal government isn't taking enough in taxes.

It's been happening over decades. What matters is income vs spending power. True income. You think this is simply something that has been happening over the last few years?

The median household income in the United States in 2024 is estimated to be $67,789 , while the median household income in 1980 was $17,710.

The average cost of a new car in 2024 is $48,644 while the average cost of a new car in 1980 was $7,574.

So while income increased 3.8 times the cost of a car increased 6.4 times.

Average home price in 1980 was $47,200. Average home price in 2024 is $427,000 That is a hair over 9 times the price.

Then there are rising medical costs. Or the cost of fuel. A gallon of gas today is around 8 times the price it was in 1980. Please, please tell me how the average person is suppose to keep up?

 

[acbytesla]

Continued:

A similar pattern prevailed in the 1990s, with even sharper growth in income at the top. From 1991 to 2000, the mean income of the top 5% of families grew at an annual average rate of 4.1%, compared with 2.7% for families in the highest quintile overall, and about 1% or barely more for other families.

The period from 2001 to 2010 is unique in the post-WWII era. Families in all strata experienced a loss in income in this decade, with those in the poorer strata experiencing more pronounced losses. The pattern in income growth from 2011 to 2018 is more balanced than the previous three decades, with gains more broadly shared across poorer and better-off families. Nonetheless, income growth remains tilted to the top, with families in the top 5% experiencing greater gainhttps://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/s than other families since 2011.

 

[acbytesla]

More:

The wealth divide among upper-income families and middle- and lower-income families is sharp and rising
The wealth gap among upper-income families and middle- and lower-income families is sharper than the income gap and is growing more rapidly.

The period from 1983 to 2001 was relatively prosperous for families in all income tiers, but one of rising inequality. The median wealth of middle-income families increased from $102,000 in 1983 to $144,600 in 2001, a gain of 42%. The net worth of lower-income families increased from $12,3oo in 1983 to $20,600 in 2001, up 67%. Even so, the gains for both lower- and middle-income families were outdistanced by upper-income families, whose median wealth increased by 85% over the same period, from $344,100 in 1983 to $636,000 in 2001. (Figures are expressed in 2018 dollars.)https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/

 

[mumblethrax]

Capital gains is paid on the gains from stock, not the sale of it. If you didn't make any gains there's nothing to be taxed.

I was pointing out that you pay capital gains on gains from the sale of stock, and not income tax. I was not claiming that the capital gains tax is a tax on the sale of stock, but upon the sale of stock.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Start a new thread on tax for ***** sake.

 

[3point14]

As for minimum wage, its a silly metric. It is comprised mainly of young people, part time workers, and people in hospitality ie people that get paid at or below minimum wage but are compensated in tips not counted towards this measurement.

Yeah, not really people at all. Those guys don't deserve a living wage and should definitely have to work three jobs just to be able to afford rent.

 

[3point14]

Total Nonsense. There is little doubt that multinational corporations abuse tax systems and leverage wages and taxes to their advantage. This is why in particular why Biden was attempting to pass an international minimum corporate tax rate. Something Republicans universally oppose. What difference does our income make when it's not enough for housing, food, transportation and other essentials?

Do you have a damn clue about how skyrocketing housing, medical, food and transportation costs has made millions of Americans homeless or living from paycheck to paycheck? While at the same time Paul Allen, Larry Ellison, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates spent two billion dollars on boats. Ever notice the people on the corners panhandling? How about how much is spent on private jets? And I'm not even scratching the surface of the insane purchases that would be better spent by the middle class or the poor.

Income and wealth disparity is the cause of many of our economic problems. But not all. I agree with Republicans about over regulation causes problems. But almost certainly not the regulations they complain about. But the biggest problem is income and wealth disparity. And the reason it is, is because it redirects industries to cater to the wealthy.

This is how you can tell that the rich make too much and the rest of us don't make enough.

Yeah, but the people at the bottom have a better standard of living than cavemen, so they should be grateful. As long as the work they do contributes to the massive wealth of the deserving rich, who definitely contribute hundreds of thousands of times the value of those at the bottom cos they're so wonderful and the poor are so worthless...

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

Taxes are paid on income at that level: income taxes. Capital gains taxes are, apparently, not required if your total income that year is below that level.

Over here you have a personal exemption of €1,270 (£1,000 in old money) on capital gains in a year. I.e. you're not paying the first €1,270 of capital gains tax, such gains are taxed at 33%, so roughly the first €4,000 of gains are untaxed.

 

[arthwollipot]

You don't think a candidate's tax policy (or potential tax policy) is on topic or worthy of discussion for a presidential election campaign?

If that were what people were talking about, it would be fine. But it's not.

 

[acbytesla]

Yeah, but the people at the bottom have a better standard of living than cavemen, so they should be grateful. As long as the work they do contributes to the massive wealth of the deserving rich, who definitely contribute hundreds of thousands of times the value of those at the bottom cos they're so wonderful and the poor are so worthless...

You think? No one ever heard of a Caveman being arrested for urinating.

 

[Tero]

If that were what people were talking about, it would be fine. But it's not.

Then what is? Trump had those tables of groceries. I think mentioned Cheerios briefly. Economics is not a strong skill of the average voter. Prices high? Must be Biden. They vote basically on gut feel for any aspect of a presidency.

 

[TragicMonkey]

It's been happening over decades. What matters is income vs spending power. True income. You think this is simply something that has been happening over the last few years?

The median household income in the United States in 2024 is estimated to be $67,789 , while the median household income in 1980 was $17,710.

The average cost of a new car in 2024 is $48,644 while the average cost of a new car in 1980 was $7,574.

So while income increased 3.8 times the cost of a car increased 6.4 times.

Average home price in 1980 was $47,200. Average home price in 2024 is $427,000 That is a hair over 9 times the price.

Then there are rising medical costs. Or the cost of fuel. A gallon of gas today is around 8 times the price it was in 1980. Please, please tell me how the average person is suppose to keep up?

Indeed. My income is pretty good. Even adjusting for inflation I'm making more than my father was at my age. But I can't afford to buy a house, where he not only bought houses but supported a stay-at-home wife and two children, and we lived pretty nicely: orthodontistry, college, etc. And my grandfather was a blue-collar worker who supported three children and a stay-at-home wife on a salary that even adjusted for inflation seems laughably small.

It's upsetting that I'm doing everything I'm supposed to: higher ed, professional job, living well within my means, not splurging, saving and investing....and I'm still worse off than financially illiterate people making less money forty and sixty years ago!