Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

[Poem]

You don't seem to understand what burden of proof means, or what exactly I'm actually arguing. You are making the positive claim, not me. The burden of proof is on you, not me.

Your claim is:

The claim that 90% of porn was violent rested on one study.

That study, as you acknowledged, dates back to the most popular rented videos of 2004/5, but the HCE report is about online porn (PornHub, Xhamster, Xvideos and Xnxx), as already noted. If the HCE has relied on that one (Bridges et al) study, how can they be talking about online porn? How can The Guardian's headline be: "French equality watchdog finds 90% of online pornography abuses women"?

Le Monde's report on the sequence of events:

At a senate hearing in September 2022 on the first parliamentary report on the topic entitled "Behind the Scenes" ("L'envers du décor"), the judge said that "90% of pornographic content contains physical or verbal violence, and is therefore criminally reprehensible." "Our report is intended to be an in-depth examination and extension of the Senate report," said Pierre Brossolette.​

If the HCE are relying on that one Bridges study, how can it be that The Guardian affirms that:

After more than 18 months of hearings and reviewing millions of videos on the biggest international pornography sites, the report said that in millions of videos, “women, caricatured with the worst sexist and racist stereotypes, are humiliated, objectified, dehumanised, assaulted, tortured, subjected to treatment that is contrary both to human dignity and French law”.​

How can it be that the HCE states in their report:

Physical and sexual violence in 90% of online videos
The Haut Conseil à l'Egalité conducted a study of the four main pornographic platforms (Pornhub, Pornhub, XVideos, Xnxx, Xhamster)​

That's only part of your claim, but it's an important part. You say that you will deal with it, but your follow up post doesn't actually deal with it. You know how you could prove me wrong? Provide another source which gives that 90% figure. But you haven't done so, because you cannot, because there is no other source for that 90% figure.

You think the HCE study found the 90% figure wrong for online porn - but decided to go with it anyway?

 

[Poem]

The claim that 90% of porn was violent rested on one study.

Hell behind the scenes: French senators present a damning report on the porn industry.

There is no mention of the Bridges et al study in this article. If the only source is that study, then what's this:

After more than six months of work, four senators - Annick Billon, Alexandra Borchio-Fontimp, Laurence Cohen and Laurence Rossignol - have presented a damning report on the porn industry, entitled “L’Enfer du Décor“ (“Hell behind the scenes”, a spin on the expression “L’envers du décors”, meaning “behind the scenes”).

The 150-page report, which features interviews and testimonies of actors, sociologists and associations, focuses on the sexual violence perpetrated and conveyed by the pornographic industry, which is sometimes linked to “modern slavery”.
​

The French Public Prosecutor's 90% claim followed that senate hearing.

 

[Poem]

More on the senate hearing from The Independent:

The report found that 90% of pornographic scenes include violence and that two thirds of children aged 14 and less have seen pornographic content — voluntarily or not. “We must stop having a dated, distorted, watered-down view of porn. Porn today includes violent, degrading, humiliating content,” Sen. Annick Billon, co-author and president of the Senate’s delegation, said. "Scenes in which a man, most often several men, up to 50, inflict physical and sexual abuse on women have become standard,” she added.​

 

[dirtywick]

well you can just go on a porn site and see that 90% of the videos on it aren't violent. they're free to go on.

 

[Poem]

well you can just go on a porn site and see that 90% of the videos on it aren't violent. they're free to go on.

I'm listening - but is there a difference between anecdotal evidence and expert study / government appointed / UN appointed reports? What's your sample size?

Where's the official push back dirtywick? Rebuttal from those in the industry?

I don't suppose the guys who commented about how exciting they thought the videos of women suffering that the HCE report speaks of was actually real violence.

...the reality is that the women are real. The violence is real. It's not cinema. Their suffering is often perfectly visible and at the same time eroticized. The comments from men are enthusiastic and testify of the excitement caused by the suffering. In an endless bidding war, producers follow consumer demands...​

Le Monde on the report:

"double anal", "triple anal"...can be counted in the millions, even if one producer declares that there isn't a girl in the world, normally constituted, who can take three co** up her a***". There are 1.4 million videos featuring sadistic practices such as "choking", "bukkake", "gangbang", "gagging", "torture", "electrocution", " surprise (penetration by surprise, which corresponds to rape)...​

The Bridges et al study (already cited) of popular rentals from 2004/5 found hair pulling, open-hand slapping, gagging and chocking in 37%, 41%, 54%, 28% (respectively) of all scenes.

 

[dirtywick]

i don't know what's going on in france. is there no pushback or rebuttal in this french case from the defense or is it a prosecutor presenting a case against no one? whatever they are saying. i don't even really care tbh

you can just go on one right now and see for yourself it's not almost completely violent sex and rape videos. i don't know what the numbers actually are but 90% of the site would be pretty overwhelmingly those kinds of videos, it would be noticeable and undeniable. but it's not the case. i don't know what they're overstating it by but they are, plainly and obviously. it's hard to take the rest of the argument seriously if they're going to misrepresnt something easily observable to that degree.

have you looked at a porn site before? if so, was that your experience on the site? almost entirely violent sex videos?

 

[Poem]

i don't know what's going on in france. is there no pushback or rebuttal in this french case from the defense or is it a prosecutor presenting a case against no one? whatever they are saying. i don't even really care tbh

you can just go on one right now and see for yourself it's not almost completely violent sex and rape videos. i don't know what the numbers actually are but 90% of the site would be pretty overwhelmingly those kinds of videos, it would be noticeable and undeniable. but it's not the case. i don't know what they're overstating it by but they are, plainly and obviously. it's hard to take the rest of the argument seriously if they're going to misrepresnt something easily observable to that degree.

You seriously think this is evidence that their report, which took 18 months, is simply wrong?

I would certainly be interested in credible evidence that they are wrong...for sure.

have you looked at a porn site before? if so, was that your experience on the site? almost entirely violent sex videos?

I don't and won't watch porn. I have seen it in the past - long time ago.

 

[dirtywick]

well, sounds like this whole porn thing is some pretty unfamiliar territory for you then. i can only say you could independently verify their evidence easily enough if you want to, and maybe understand why everyone else is so incredulous about the claims of the stuides you're citing as well, but you won't so that puts us at a bit of an impasse i think.

 

[Poem]

well, sounds like this whole porn thing is some pretty unfamiliar territory for you then. i can only say you could independently verify their evidence easily enough if you want to, and maybe understand why everyone else is so incredulous about the claims of the stuides you're citing as well, but you won't so that puts us at a bit of an impasse i think.

It's also very possible, as I have mentioned before, that many / most people are normalized to what they once would have been disgusted by. Indeed, that is the import of many of the reports and studies I have cited.

Why do you think there is currently a national emergency in the UK regarding VAWG (Violence against women and girls)? There is no doubt that porn has played it's part.

 

[dirtywick]

i don't know what's going on in the uk anymore than i do france.

anyway i can't independently verify the studies accurately reflect the content of the sites. not sure what else to say. don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

 

[Poem]

i don't know what's going on in the uk anymore than i do france.

anyway i can't independently verify the studies accurately reflect the content of the sites. not sure what else to say. don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Do turkeys vote for Christmas?

 

[dirtywick]

well, the way i see it is either i've so desensitized to violent rapes that i've become completely unable to recognize that entire websites are mostly videos of it, or the content of the sites isn't what the studies say it is. i can attest to both of these things.

you can't, right?

 

[Poem]

well, the way i see it is either i've so desensitized to violent rapes that i've become completely unable to recognize that entire websites are mostly videos of it, or the content of the sites isn't what the studies say it is. i can attest to both of these things.

you can't, right?

Which report has it that porn is dominated by violent rape scenes? Your evidence remains anecdotal and wouldn't be taken seriously in any hearing on this issue.

 

[dirtywick]

i'm examining your evidence, not presenting my own. i don't think the statistics cited in yours hold up to even basic scrutiny and it doesn't seem that you've examined it either. anyway, we're going in circles. until something more interesting is said i don't have anything more to add.

 

[Poem]

i'm examining your evidence, not presenting my own. i don't think the statistics cited in yours hold up to even basic scrutiny and it doesn't seem that you've examined it either. anyway, we're going in circles. until something more interesting is said i don't have anything more to add.

Do you think things have improved since Pornhub was forced to remove 80% of it's content (10.5 million videos - form 13.5M down to 3M) in 2020 following Kristof's 'The Children of Pornhub' NYT article?

Pornhub and the industry is a disgrace.

 

[dirtywick]

porn hub is bad. your sources are making things up. easy peasy.

 

[Roboramma]

Your claim is:



That study, as you acknowledged, dates back to the most popular rented videos of 2004/5, but the HCE report is about online porn (PornHub, Xhamster, Xvideos and Xnxx), as already noted. If the HCE has relied on that one (Bridges et al) study, how can they be talking about online porn? How can The Guardian's headline be: "French equality watchdog finds 90% of online pornography abuses women"?

Le Monde's report on the sequence of events:

At a senate hearing in September 2022 on the first parliamentary report on the topic entitled "Behind the Scenes" ("L'envers du décor"), the judge said that "90% of pornographic content contains physical or verbal violence, and is therefore criminally reprehensible." "Our report is intended to be an in-depth examination and extension of the Senate report," said Pierre Brossolette.​

If the HCE are relying on that one Bridges study, how can it be that The Guardian affirms that:

After more than 18 months of hearings and reviewing millions of videos on the biggest international pornography sites, the report said that in millions of videos, “women, caricatured with the worst sexist and racist stereotypes, are humiliated, objectified, dehumanised, assaulted, tortured, subjected to treatment that is contrary both to human dignity and French law”.​

How can it be that the HCE states in their report:

Physical and sexual violence in 90% of online videos
The Haut Conseil à l'Egalité conducted a study of the four main pornographic platforms (Pornhub, Pornhub, XVideos, Xnxx, Xhamster)​

You think the HCE study found the 90% figure wrong for online porn - but decided to go with it anyway?

If the claim rests on something other than the one study Ziggurat mentioned, what does it rest upon? You have quoted people making the claim, but not their evidence for that claim. Do you have such evidence for where their claim comes from, or do you just have their testimony?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I must say, I do find this claim that 90% of online pornography contains violence or aggression against women to be rather incredible.
If this is true, then all the gay porn, straight porn without violence against women, lesbian porn without violence against women, BDSM in which women are violent towards men, and presumably the fringe fetish stuff, comprises only 10% of the total content. I find this hard to believe.
This is purely my opinion, but I would be interested to see where they got this 90% figure from.

 

[Myriad]

This is purely my opinion, but I would be interested to see where they got this 90% figure from.

Radical feminist theory perhaps? “He touched a part of her body with a part of his! No one can consent to that! It’s violence!”

The only question then is what the acceptable 10% was. Maybe the mobile game ads?


ETA: On second thought, mobile game ads are full of violence against women. Such as, sealing them in chambered containers where they’re in jeopardy of being immersed in molten lava if someone pulls the wrong pin, or giving them a number and stranding them on towers where they can be killed by anyone with a higher number.

 

[Ziggurat]

That study, as you acknowledged, dates back to the most popular rented videos of 2004/5, but the HCE report is about online porn (PornHub, Xhamster, Xvideos and Xnxx), as already noted. If the HCE has relied on that one (Bridges et al) study, how can they be talking about online porn? How can The Guardian's headline be: "French equality watchdog finds 90% of online pornography abuses women"?

That's a very good question. I note that you don't actually have an answer. I have an answer, but you won't like it.