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Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Darat said:
I agree - but it still isn't a trans issue in these cases.
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I think it is. From what I can tell, the current IOC rules allow male trans athletes to compete in women's boxing. Am I wrong about what the IOC rules are? And if not, how is that NOT a trans issue?
 
johnny karate said:
Do tell. Let me know if multiple boxing organizations across multiple countries have discredited the IOC and refused to associate with them like they have with the IBA.
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Goalpost move alert!

You said "one that isn't widely discredited for rampant corruption". My laughing dog was not meant to imply that the IOC has been discredited by multiple boxing organisations, just that it is widely discredited for rampant corruption, nothing more (or less) than that.
 
Trans women were born with the wrong chromosomes, the wrong skeletal structure, the wrong organs, the wrong hormones. Only in a crazy parallel universe are they "women".
 
Hercules56 said:
Trans women were born with the wrong chromosomes, the wrong skeletal structure, the wrong organs, the wrong hormones. Only in a crazy parallel universe are they "women".
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Counterpoint: Transwomen are born with the right everything, except for some of the wiring in their brains. Similar to schizophrenics, just with different wires getting crossed.
 
Ziggurat said:
From what I can tell, the current IOC rules allow male trans athletes to compete in women's boxing. Am I wrong about what the IOC rules are? And if not, how is that NOT a trans issue?
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Khelif's eligibility is not a trans issue if she never transitioned. IOC's rules for inclusion in the female division will effect both intersex and trans athletes, but we are not always talking about both in any given case.
 
d4m10n said:
Why assume conspiracy? When Wambui, Niyonsaba, & Semenya shared a podium there was no conspiracy whatsoever, just three (XY) intersex athletes proudly representing their respective nations in women's sport.
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Just three MALE athletes, with male-specific disorders of sexual development, who were allowed to compete against females because other males decided they should have that special privilege.
 
Olmstead said:
If she meets their criteria for "female", they can hardly refer to her as anything else.
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We should certainly be able to discussion - and criticise - whether their criteria for "female" is remotely reasonable or fair, and whether it bears any resemblance to reality for the rest of the world.

Or at least, we could if they'd actually share with us what their criteria is. Right now we have two participants who hit every single visible marker that we've evolved for sex-differentiation, who appear to be completely male in facial conformation, body shape, thigh-to-pelvis angle, and observed power... and who have been disclosed to have testosterone levels that are notably above those that are in the range for females.

At present, there is nothing at all that suggests that either of those two boxers are female in any rational way.
 
d4m10n said:
Khelif's eligibility is not a trans issue if she never transitioned. IOC's rules for inclusion in the female division will effect both intersex and trans athletes, but we are not always talking about both in any given case.
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The rules affect everyone who wants to compete in the women's category, whether they be DSD, trans, or cis. If Khelif is allowed to compete because biological males are allowed to compete as long as it says female on their passport (as seems to be the case), then yeah, that's a trans issue.
 
Pixel42 said:
If discussions of these cases eventually lead to generally agreed criteria for eligibility of all competitors who want to compete as women, and those criteria rule out, say, anyone with XY chromosomes, that would certainly be a trans issue.
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Yes - unfortunately the two issues (trans and disorders of sexual development) have gotten intertwined - and not just due to sports. As most of you know, Many trans activists bring up DSDs - often implying ( & occasionally explicitly stating) that being trans is a type of DSD. Moreover, I've seen in a fair amount of folks claiming both "trans" and "intersex" identities on social media. Moreover, some will claim that being trans is diagnosable via brain scans (and we've critiqued those few papers in this thread).

I worked on a case recently that blurs the lines a bit. This was a male Chinese kid born with bladder exstrophy - bladder external to body. Not a classic DSD, but penis and scrotum were underdeveloped (common in this condition) - the latter so much so that there was no room for the testicles (i.e. they stayed internal). He got kicked around orphanages for years until adopted by an American couple around age 7. Kid still very much identified as a boy at that point. A few years later, the decision was made to put him on puberty blockers for reasons I can't recall or weren't made explicit in the charts. Now at about age 12 (and several more years here in the US), he's decided he wants to be a girl and (last I checked) and had started estrogen - surgeries were being planned. So while I'm generally against children "transitioning"/ gender affirming care (apart from psychological), I would hesitate to pass laws completely disallowing it because of cases like this.

I'm definitely not saying "transition" is what's best for this kid, but judging by his picture, his face will probably pass well. That being said, he's in likely in some for heartbreak from potential long-term partners - if they are heterosexual males (hopefully he is heterosexual - i.e. attracted to females - while their may still be some rejection there, I suspect it won't be as unequivocal as with straight males)

Edited to add: we did not find a genetic cause for this kid's condition.
 
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theprestige said:
Counterpoint: Transwomen are born with the right everything, except for some of the wiring in their brains. Similar to schizophrenics, just with different wires getting crossed.
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Thats another way to look at it. They are men who's wires are crossed, making them think they are actually women. There are examples of anti-psychotic drugs successfully treating gender dysphoria.
 
d4m10n said:
Flashback Friday! Rolfe posited a definitive solution to the problem of women's sports leagues five years ago on this calendar day:


https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12775146&postcount=566
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That would mostly work. But Sry's function is to start to a cascade that triggers male development - you can dispense with it if there's another trigger that activates the related gene SOX9, which is the more conserved regulator of male development in vertebrates. Meaning, you could get a case of a functional male that lacked Sry/SRY due to something else activating SOX9 - we know this is possible in mammals as there are a few rodent species that lack a Y chromosome (and Sry), but have Sox9 and otherwise typical mammalian male development.
 
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johnny karate said:
Edit: I like how just a couple of posts later you point to something stupidly wrong in the post you criticized me for not taking seriously, thus proving my point.
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Exactly. I addressed the erroneous information in Samson posts. You didn't, you simply handwaved it.

That says more about you than it does about me chum!
 
Matthew Best said:
Goalpost move alert!

You said "one that isn't widely discredited for rampant corruption". My laughing dog was not meant to imply that the IOC has been discredited by multiple boxing organisations, just that it is widely discredited for rampant corruption, nothing more (or less) than that.
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Indeed. The IOC is the second most corrupt controlling body for international sport... right behind FIFA
 
Louden Wilde said:
That would mostly work. But Sry's function is to start to a cascade that triggers male development - you can dispense with it if there's another trigger that activates the related gene SOX9, which is the more conserved regulator of male development in vertebrates. Meaning, you could get a case of a functional male that lacked Sry/SRY due to something else activating SOX9 - we know this is possible in mammals as there are a few rodent species that lack a Y chromosome (and Sry), but have Sox9 and otherwise typical mammalian male development.
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Thanks for this! I come to this forum because every now and then someone makes me think more deeply about the science behind the issues.
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/cnd0drjr4jdo

Hungarian boxer Anna Luca Hamori says she doesn't "think it's fair" that her next opponent, Imane Khelif, is taking part in the women's category at the Olympics.

Hamori, 23, will face the 25-year-old Algerian in the quarter-finals of the 66kg competition on Saturday.

Khelif is one of two athletes - along with Taiwan's Lin Yu-ting - who have been cleared to compete having been disqualified from last year's Women's World Championships after they were said to have failed gender eligibility tests.

The Hungarian Boxing Association has protested against Khelif's participation at Paris 2024, and the Hungarian Olympic Committee requested talks with the International Olympic Committee (IOC) over the issue.
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Good, thoughtful, article in the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/a...e-khelif-lin-yu-ting-facts-fairness-battering

Is this even a trans issue, as so many seem to have assumed? It is certainly a sporting and practical one. Clearly trans people deserve, and are long overdue, full personal, legal and emotional freedom to be as they are and do as they please. At the same time there are obvious problems with encouraging people who have been through a testosterone-fuelled male puberty to compete in particular sporting events against people who have not.

These are hugely complex, essentially irresolvable issues. Equal rights, health concerns, wellbeing and access to sport for young women all come into play. It is an impossibly difficult balance of interests, one that requires care and thought and sensitivity on all sides; that can only progress with trust and respect, by an absence of censure and blame, and above all by total clarity on the facts.

At which point, well, here comes everybody. Here comes the startling ineptitude and tardiness of the IOC in addressing this issue. Here come stampeding online hordes, opportunist politicians looking for a piñata to thwack. Here comes a misunderstanding of the facts, pre-cooked argument looking for its nail which is always the same nail.
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In the end the only obvious fault here lies with the IOC’s malfunctioning boxing unit, which has managed this situation with a ham-fisted and weirdly aggressive sense of its own certainty. It lies with Thomas Bach, who clearly just hoped this would all blow over. It lies with the failure to formulate a proper policy, to have a plan and a programme for the athletes. It lies with every talking head who has half-understood this situation, has assumed that what they are witnessing here is just another variation on previous outrages and leapt in with both feet.
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I still haven't seen anything about the Cass review on 'Science-based Medicine'. However, the latest podcast edition of 'Skeptics's Guide to the Universe' just dropped, and included a segment on the Cass Review.

Amongst other guff, Dr. Steven Novella informs us that the most significant problem with the Cass review is it required studies to be double-blinded placebo control trials, and therefore disregarded lots of high quality evidence supporting gender-affirming care.

Yes, that's right. Novella just confirmed that he either has not bothered examining the methodology used for the review, or is lying. At least we know.

Link here. The start discussing the Cass review around 40 mins in. The double-blinding issue is not the only false statement, see how many you can spot.
 
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