Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Ziggurat]

Why should one criteria cover two different things?

What exactly makes them different? If the criteria themselves don't cover that difference, then they aren't different for the purposes of the criteria. So what are the criteria everyone can agree on?

 

[d4m10n]

The interesting question for me is whether the presence or absence of the Y chromosome is indeed sufficient to rule someone out as a competitor in a female sports league. I know the differences between male and female bodies which make separate female sports leagues advisable are not confined to the presence or absence of dangly bits, but I don't know how many of them are determined by the presence or absence of the Y chromosome.

Probably this was discussed upthread, but it mostly comes down to presence or absence of an SRY gene^WP.

 

[johnny karate]

The seeming love for the IOC is very perplexing. In this Olympics alone they have turned a blind eye to systematic doping of Chinese swimmers. They do what is politically expedient at the time.

Women are endangered by biological men competing as women in contact sports. Someone can die as a consequence. The participation of these two boxers is not just about obvious unfairness.

The IOC is not the only source validating these women as female. This has already been established. Are you not following the discussion? Or just ignoring evidence inconvenient to your predetermined conclusion?

 

[d4m10n]

I just can't see it being a trans issue.

So maybe the DSD thread?

https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14376093

 

[johnny karate]

I’m not certain this has been established at all. All we know is they were tested and disqualified by the IBA.

That’s actually not all we know. We also know that that multiple governing bodies in their sport have been finding them eligible to compete as women for years. We know their own countries - including one where it is illegal to change gender - have confirmed them as women.

You’ve reached your conclusion based in a single piece of unverified evidence from an unreliable source.

 

[Ziggurat]

The IOC is not the only source validating these women as female.

The IOC is the only source for validating them as qualified to compete in the women's category at the olympics.

 

[johnny karate]

Of course, because the origin country of a national sportsman has absolutely NO stake whatsoever in whether or not that sportsman wins Olympic gold medals or not, along with the millions of $$$ that come along withthem

You cannot be this naive, surely?

If you want to believe that a Muslim country would violate its own laws and culture to engage in this conspiracy, that’s entirely up to you. But no one else is obligated to and your suspicion certainly doesn’t qualify as evidence.

Your claim that these women are biologically male remains unproven.

 

[johnny karate]

Of course, you didn't address anything he posted, but we've come to expect that kind of dodging from Team Males Should Be Allowed to Compete in Female Sports

I typically don’t address the arguments of delusional Trump supporters and feel pretty good about not being ideologically aligned with them.

Edit: I like how just a couple of posts later you point to something stupidly wrong in the post you criticized me for not taking seriously, thus proving my point.

 

[johnny karate]

The IOC is the only source for validating them as qualified to compete in the women's category at the olympics.

I’m not sure what the point of narrowing it down like that is other than to ignore evidence you don’t like. They’ve been competing as women for years in multiple competitions overseen by multiple governing bodies. The claim being refuted is that these women are biologically male. They’re history before the Olympics is relevant to that.

 

[johnny karate]

You're surely not referring to the IOC?????

Do tell. Let me know if multiple boxing organizations across multiple countries have discredited the IOC and refused to associate with them like they have with the IBA.

 

[Ziggurat]

If you want to believe that a Muslim country would violate its own laws and culture to engage in this conspiracy, that’s entirely up to you.

Biological males born with certain DSDs in a Muslim country being categorized as female isn't a conspiracy. It's expected.

 

[Ziggurat]

I’m not sure what the point of narrowing it down like that is other than to ignore evidence you don’t like. They’ve been competing as women for years in multiple competitions overseen by multiple governing bodies.

You seem to think this means more than it actually does. Caster Semenya competed for years as a woman. Yet she's biologically male, with a DSD. The fact that she competed as a woman isn't proof that she's biologically female.

The claim being refuted is that these women are biologically male. They’re history before the Olympics is relevant to that.

Except that if the rules allow males with DSD's to compete as women (as they did for Caster), it's not evidence that they aren't male, is it?

So what exactly are the rules the IOC is operating by?

 

[Darat]

What exactly makes them different? If the criteria themselves don't cover that difference, then they aren't different for the purposes of the criteria. So what are the criteria everyone can agree on?

Why does everyone have to agree on the criteria a sporting body has decided to use? Surely sporting bodies should be allowed to come up with their own criteria or perhaps adopt someone else's criteria?

 

[johnny karate]

Biological males born with certain DSDs in a Muslim country being categorized as female isn't a conspiracy. It's expected.

You seem to think this means more than it actually does. Caster Semenya competed for years as a woman. Yet she's biologically male, with a DSD. The fact that she competed as a woman isn't proof that she's biologically female.

Except that if the rules allow males with DSD's to compete as women (as they did for Caster), it's not evidence that they aren't male, is it?

Sorry, as others have pointed out, I thought we are discussing transgenderism considering that's the thread we're in. If a claim is made in a thread about transgenderism that an athlete who identifies as female is biologically male, it's a fair assumption we're talking about transgendersim. If not, then this topic is in the wrong thread.

So what exactly are the rules the IOC is operating by?

I'll tell you what, you let me know the exact scientific protocols that the IBA followed in their testing and I'll look into that for you.

 

[Ziggurat]

So what exactly are the rules the IOC is operating by?

This is the most I could find, and it's not much:

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/joint-paris-2024-boxing-unit-ioc-statement

"As with previous Olympic boxing competitions, the gender and age of the athletes are based on their passport."​

Note that although this is an official statement by the IOC, it's not the rules themselves, so maybe this isn't quite right. But assuming it is correct, could a male with DSD qualify as a woman? Apparently, yes. Could a male trans person qualify? Apparently, yes. Could a male simply pretending to be female qualify? Apparently, yes.

If they're really just determining gender by passport, well, for US passports, you can list whatever gender you want. You can even change it whenever you get a new passport. So being an ordinary male who just wants to beat up females is apparently OK, according to the IOC.

There's a problem here. If that's really the rules, the rules are bad. If that's not really the rules, the IOC has a communications failure.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'll tell you what, you let me know the exact scientific protocols that the IBA followed in their testing and I'll look into that for you.

Not really relevant, since what's under discussion here is the IOC rules. And those rules matter to this thread because the rules that get applied to DSD athletes are the same rules that get applied to trans athletes.

 

[Ziggurat]

Why does everyone have to agree on the criteria a sporting body has decided to use? Surely sporting bodies should be allowed to come up with their own criteria or perhaps adopt someone else's criteria?

Read for context. "Everyone", in context, is everyone involved with the sport. And it's desirable to have everyone (again, in context, involved in the sport) on the same page so as to minimize conflict.

 

[Pixel42]

Why does everyone have to agree on the criteria a sporting body has decided to use? Surely sporting bodies should be allowed to come up with their own criteria or perhaps adopt someone else's criteria?

If some sporting bodies are choosing to use criteria which are unfair to, or even a significant danger to, female athletes I would think that would be a legitimate matter of concern to at least those female athletes.

I know those female athletes (assuming they become aware of the potentially dangerous critera) can simply choose not to compete in the competitions run by those bodies, but surely it's also unfair to expect them to choose between risking their safety and giving up any chance of winning a medal, especially an Olympic medal.

 

[Darat]

If some sporting bodies are choosing to use criteria which are unfair to, or even a significant danger to, female athletes I would think that would be a legitimate matter of concern to at least those female athletes.

I know those female athletes (assuming they become aware of the potentially dangerous critera) can simply choose not to compete in the competitions run by those bodies, but surely it's also unfair to expect them to choose between risking their safety and giving up any chance of winning a medal, especially an Olympic medal.

I agree - but it still isn't a trans issue in these cases.

 

[Pixel42]

I agree - but it still isn't a trans issue in these cases.

If discussions of these cases eventually lead to generally agreed criteria for eligibility of all competitors who want to compete as women, and those criteria rule out, say, anyone with XY chromosomes, that would certainly be a trans issue.