Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

[Emily's Cat]

???

It was tongue in cheek. Hyenas are female-dominated, with females being larger and more aggressive than the males. Forced copulation really isn't a thing that has been observed with hyenas.

Many animal species exhibit a degree of forced copulation, or at least attempts to force copulation. In many species, females depend on other females in their herd to help defend them from unwanted advances; in some species females depend on the herd male to protect them. Ducks, particularly mallards, are some downright rapey little ********.

Anyway, it was just humor. There are also lots of species that don't engage in force. Lost of species don't even have intercourse, such as fish and frogs where the male fertilizes the eggs after they've been released during spawning. In others... well... males get killed by the female if their overtures aren't accepted.

 

[Poem]

All such material is illegal to access if you are in the UK, just like it is illegal to sell it on DVD or Blu-ray. The fact that material is available does not alter that fact. It is illegal to murder someone in the UK yet we 1) still have murders and 2) don't get to prosecute people who commit what we call murder in other countries but we would prosecute someone in the UK for conspiracy to murder someone not in the UK if they are conspiring in the UK (for actual examples look up honour killings in the UK). If someone in the UK is behind a website that does have such illegal material they would be open to be prosecuted even if the websites are physically in another country. People have been prosecuted for such offences.

Very interesting, thanks - but why do Barnardo's say in their report (page 4):

Pornographic content that is illegal offline, but legal online

Online pornography platforms host videos depicting sexual activity with actors or characters who look like children: petite, young-looking performers made to look underage through props such as stuffed toys, lollipops and school uniforms and sexual activity between family members, particularly step-families. Although not strictly illegal, this is extremely harmful, sexualising children and driving the demand for ‘real’ child sexual abuse material.

You are saying they can be prosecuted...but what for? It's legal.

 

[Poem]

It was tongue in cheek. Hyenas are female-dominated, with females being larger and more aggressive than the males. Forced copulation really isn't a thing that has been observed with hyenas.

Many animal species exhibit a degree of forced copulation, or at least attempts to force copulation. In many species, females depend on other females in their herd to help defend them from unwanted advances; in some species females depend on the herd male to protect them. Ducks, particularly mallards, are some downright rapey little ********.

Anyway, it was just humor. There are also lots of species that don't engage in force. Lost of species don't even have intercourse, such as fish and frogs where the male fertilizes the eggs after they've been released during spawning. In others... well... males get killed by the female if their overtures aren't accepted.

Very interesting.........hadn't know that about hyenas.

With recently released figures in the UK showing 3,000 violent crimes against women and girls occurring daily (and described as a national emergency by the police), then something of that hyena culture may be needed.

 

[Darat]

My understanding, based on Barnardo's submission to the Online Safety Bill is that you are wrong. They state unambiguously that what's illegal on DVD and Blu Ray is rife or easy to view on mainstream sites.

Content that would be prohibited offline by the BBFC (British Board of Film Classification), making it illegal to own on DVD or Blu-Ray, is readily available on mainstream pornography sites. The BBFC will not classify any content as R18 if it is illegal, or material that is potentially harmful – for example because it depicts and/ or promotes child sexual abuse, incest, trafficking, torture, and harmful sexual acts. It includes material which promotes violent sexual activity, including breath restriction (strangulation), gagging and forced penetration, and depicts sexual activity with adult actors made to look like children: petite, young-looking performers made to look underage through props such as stuffed toys, lollipops and school uniforms. It also includes content which depicts sexual activity between family members, such as between fathers and daughters and brothers and sisters. This content is extremely harmful, promoting violence against women and girls, and sexualising children. Yet online, it is easy to view free of charge and currently lacks age-gating.

As I stated it is illegal right now in the UK, the prison sentence is up to 10 years if you are found to possess or view such material. What is illegal on DVD and blu-ray is illegal on line, in the UK. People are caught, prosecuted and when found guilty in a court sentenced for up to 10 years in prison, there may also be lifelong punishments.

 

[Darat]

Very interesting, thanks - but why do Barnardo's say in their report (page 4):

Pornographic content that is illegal offline, but legal online

Online pornography platforms host videos depicting sexual activity with actors or characters who look like children: petite, young-looking performers made to look underage through props such as stuffed toys, lollipops and school uniforms and sexual activity between family members, particularly step-families. Although not strictly illegal, this is extremely harmful, sexualising children and driving the demand for ‘real’ child sexual abuse material.

You are saying they can be prosecuted...but what for? It's legal.

If it is not strictly illegal then it is legal, people will unfortunately always try to get away with terrible behaviour, pushing at the boundaries of what is legal and illegal. And you consistently misunderstand what the report means by saying it would be illegal on DVD etc. They are not saying that the content featuring children is legal online. They are saying that such content is available to people from the UK, that does not mean it is legal to view or download such illegal in the UK content.

This is from the CPS website:

https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/sexual-offences

Extreme pornography describes pornographic images that are grossly offensive, disgusting or obscene, and portray a range of extreme acts in an explicit and realistic way. This may include images of extreme violence, mutilation, or sexual activity with an animal that are intended to sexually arouse.

Disclosing private sexual images without consent (so-called ‘revenge pornography’). This relates to private sexual photographs and films of a person that have been disclosed without the consent of an individual who appears in them, with intent to cause that individual distress. Such images may be uploaded onto the internet, often by a person’s ex-partner, to cause them distress, humiliation or embarrassment.

Indecent images of children is an offence to take, to permit to be taken, to make, to possess, show, or to distribute or publish an image of a child posed or pictured indecently, for example in a sexual way. This can also include images of adults involved in indecent act where a child is present but not themselves portrayed indecently. Images can include actual photographs or video footage, drawings or tracings, or images created digitally. ‘Making’ an indecent image does not just refer to a person taking a photo or video - it can also refer to a person downloading or printing an indecent image, or opening an email attachment containing an indecent image.

 

[Poem]

If it is not strictly illegal then it is legal, people will unfortunately always try to get away with terrible behaviour, pushing at the boundaries of what is legal and illegal. And you consistently misunderstand what the report means by saying it would be illegal on DVD etc. They are not saying that the content featuring children is legal online. They are saying that such content is available to people from the UK, that does not mean it is legal to view or download such illegal in the UK content.

This is from the CPS website:

Is that a typo? If it isn't then there is perhaps a good reason why I might be 'consistently misunderstanding' it.

The material described under the heading 'illegal offline, but legal online' is described as 'not strictly illegal' in the passage that follows that headline (to which you have reacted above) - and the material it discusses is affirmed as illegal in the other passage I cited which you affirmed as illegal (that it could lead to a 10 year prison sentence).

???

 

[Poem]

it’s possible the uk has a law against that, so i’ll agree sure. i don’t find it relevant to anything i’ve said though.

You have said that you consider such material to be lawful - which study would you cite to back up that position?

 

[dirtywick]

You have said that you consider such material to be lawful - which study would you cite to back up that position?

i did not. you asked if i found a video title acceptable.

 

[Darat]

Is that a typo? If it isn't then there is perhaps a good reason why I might be 'consistently misunderstanding' it.

The material described under the heading 'illegal offline, but legal online' is described as 'not strictly illegal' in the passage that follows that headline (to which you have reacted above) - and the material it discusses is affirmed as illegal in the other passage I cited which you affirmed as illegal (that it could lead to a 10 year prison sentence).

???

See the CPS explanation of what falls under indecent. It doesn't matter if it is in a physical or purely digital format, the content that you asked me about is already illegal in the UK. You can go to the primary legislation and read it for yourself: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/contents ETA:You'll also have to cross reference with the protection of children act 1978: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/37/contents

 

[Poem]

See the CPS explanation of what falls under indecent. It doesn't matter if it is in a physical or purely digital format, the content that you asked me about is already illegal in the UK. You can go to the primary legislation and read it for yourself: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/contents ETA:You'll also have to cross reference with the protection of children act 1978: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/37/contents

Thanks, I'll have a look - though I am still confused by what I thought was a typo in your post:

'If it is not strictly illegal then it is legal'.

This would contradict what you say is illegal.

 

[Poem]

the keyword study posted long ago in this thread directly contradicts the idea that porn suggesting children is “rife”

i do think it’s acceptable for it to be allowed by law.

no i just haven’t been won over by your arguments.

it’s possible the uk has a law against that, so i’ll agree sure. i don’t find it relevant to anything i’ve said though.

i did not. you asked if i found a video title acceptable.

Please cite evidence that Barnardo's are wrong in their assertion that material suggesting sexual activity with children is 'rife' on mainstream porn cites.

Why is it that most UK citizens agree this extreme material should be removed from online sites? According to Barnardo's:

Almost 70 per cent of UK adults (69%) agree that this extreme pornography which would be illegal on DVD should also be illegal online according to new YouGov online research published today, commissioned by children’s charity Barnardo’s. This compares to just 10% who disagree.

In addition, 75% of parents and guardians agreed that extreme pornography should be illegal online compared to 62% of adults who don’t look after children.

Under UK law it is illegal to promote material that promotes sex with a child - but that doesn't seem to be an issue on Pornhub with 'Step Mum' the 7th most searched term.

 

[Poem]

the keyword study posted long ago in this thread directly contradicts the idea that porn suggesting children is “rife”

Is it a "good thing" that porn suggesting sexual activity with children can be found on mainstream sites?

 

[Poem]

Can't you name a real country or region, or even just a community, that does not have a rape culture?

Hypotheticals are kinda boring, don't you agree?

I can't. If the UK, supposedly a civilized nation, has effectively decriminalised rape then that doesn't bode well for other nations (Europe and the USA have similar woeful conviction rates as the UK). The UK does have tough laws on obscene material but is unable (unwilling) to enforce them for internet porn. So we have illegal and harmful material easily available...even to children. Most child sexual abuse in the UK is now perpetrated by children - a four fold increase in the last decade. We know that they watch porn and that they are acting out in the real world what they see online.

 

[Darat]

I can't. If the UK, supposedly a civilized nation, has effectively decriminalised rape ...snip....

That "if" is doing a lot of lifting, and since the UK has not decriminalised rape - neither explicitly not implicitly it renders moot everything you are trying to hang off that "if". In the UK as a society we have become more aware of and more focused on dealing with rape than any time previously from making marital rape a criminal offence to increasing sentences for rapists.

 

[Darat]

Please cite evidence that Barnardo's are wrong in their assertion that material suggesting sexual activity with children is 'rife' on mainstream porn cites.

Why is it that most UK citizens agree this extreme material should be removed from online sites? According to Barnardo's:



Under UK law it is illegal to promote material that promotes sex with a child - but that doesn't seem to be an issue on Pornhub with 'Step Mum' the 7th most searched term.

One can be 80 years old and have a stepmum.

 

[dirtywick]

Is it a "good thing" that porn suggesting sexual activity with children can be found on mainstream sites?

i took issue with the statement that it was "rife"

 

[dirtywick]

One can be 80 years old and have a stepmum.

it's why i brought up the keyword study posted by poem earlier in the thread. a huge majority of the video titles they thought were problematic, and without getting into whether or not these other categories of porn are harmful to children, it was for other reasons like suggesting incest or violence. most of it didn't suggest sex acts children.

and even at that, most of all of it is just the porn equivalent of clickbait. is a dude in his early 40s and a woman in her mid twenties pretending to be step siblings getting a little carried away while wrestling a child sex video? no, but that's what's being counted here.

 

[Poem]

That "if" is doing a lot of lifting, and since the UK has not decriminalised rape - neither explicitly not implicitly it renders moot everything you are trying to hang off that "if". In the UK as a society we have become more aware of and more focused on dealing with rape than any time previously from making marital rape a criminal offence to increasing sentences for rapists.

You'd need to speak to the former Victim's Commission who said it - and the phrase is 'effectively decriminalized', not 'decriminalized'.

What's changed since she said it? The culture in the UK is one of VAWG - 1 in 12 will be assaulted every year. That includes the 400% rise (over 10 years) in child sex abuse which is exacerbated by porn. The illegal porn you say is subject to the law is not being dealt with. The UK places access to such material ABOVE protecting children. That is the status quo.

One can be 80 years old and have a stepmum.

The context in the Barnardo's report is of illegal material. Why are you trying to downplay their findings?

As I understand it, the US does not have the strict laws we have - and a lot of porn is produced there. Our laws aren't up to the job. It's not complicated.

A civilized society would immediately act and remove this material / ban the website. We aren't doing that.

 

[Poem]

it's why i brought up the keyword study posted by poem earlier in the thread. a huge majority of the video titles they thought were problematic, and without getting into whether or not these other categories of porn are harmful to children, it was for other reasons like suggesting incest or violence. most of it didn't suggest sex acts children

Incest and violence are also illegal under UK law.

and even at that, most of all of it is just the porn equivalent of clickbait. is a dude in his early 40s and a woman in her mid twenties pretending to be step siblings getting a little carried away while wrestling a child sex video? no, but that's what's being counted here.

'...while wrestling a child sex video' ????

Anecdotal evidence is always going to be questionable.

 

[dirtywick]

Incest and violence are also illegal under UK law.

yeah, you've told us that many times now. so what, they're not child sex acts you're claiming are rife on the sites.

and even at that, most of all of it is just the porn equivalent of clickbait. is a dude in his early 40s and a woman in her mid twenties pretending to be step siblings getting a little carried away while wrestling a child sex video? no, but that's what's being counted here.


'...while wrestling a child sex video' ????

Anecdotal evidence is always going to be questionable.

they didn't actually watch the videos in that study or, i don't believe, any of the evidence you've presented here. as the only guy here willing to say i've actually been on a porn site before, i can comment on my experience. so you can present some evidence towards the actual content if you have any and i'll consider it.