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Merged Concerns over baby killer ignored? / Nurse Lucy Letby killed babies in her care

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Read what I said again....

"these babies only ever died or collapsed when she was on duty, and the incidences of babies dying in the manner they did , stopped when she was removed from the ward..."

You highlighted the part you wanted to contest, but you ignored the part that explained the context...


Child A - air injection (died)
Child B - air injection (survived)
Child C - air injection (died)
Child D - air injection (died)
Child E - air injection (died
Child F - insulin overdose (survived)
Child G - excessive milk feeding (survived but severely disabled)
Child H - not specified (survived)
Child I - air injection (died)
Child J - smothered (died)
Child K - breathing tube removed (died)
Child L - insulin overdose (survived)
Child M - adrenaline overdose (survived)
Child N - breathing tube jammed into back of throat (survived)
Child O - air injection (died)
Child P - air injection (died)
Child Q - air injection (died)

Did any of the six babies who died when she was not on the ward die from air injection or massive insulin overdoses, or have a breathing tube removed or jammed into the back of their throat?


The list is begging the question.
 
You're not as stupid as you're pretending to be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

"In classical rhetoric and logic, begging the question or assuming the conclusion (Latin: petītiō principiī) is an informal fallacy that occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion."

In other words, a circular argument routing back to the assumed conclusion.

Please explain what conclusion I am assuming?
 
What question?

I think Matthew means the list assumes the babies suffered deliberate harm, which means someone must be guilty of causing it. This doesn't allow for the possibility that they died accidentally.

I'm not suggesting this is a valid objection, only that this is what I think his objection is.
 
I think Matthew means the list assumes the babies suffered deliberate harm, which means someone must be guilty of causing it. This doesn't allow for the possibility that they died accidentally.

I'm not suggesting this is a valid objection, only that this is what I think his objection is.

According to the trial court, those babies in the list DID suffer deliberate harm, so its not an assumption, its an established fact, and there is much corroborating evidence

FACT: She was caught on occasions in the actual act of harming some of those babies, on other occasions, doing nothing while medical sensors and equipment were clearly indicating the baby was in distress.

FACT: She performed Facebook searches of the parents of the babies who died. A clear breach of medical ethics.

FACT: She took the step of unofficially contacting grieving parents, sending them personal notes, which is not only a very creepy thing to do, but also another violation of medical ethics.

FACT: She had 257 confidential medical documents, many related to the victim babies, in her bedroom, stuffed into shopping bags. Another violation of medical ethics (and many serial killers collect trophies).

FACT: She wrote notes to herself, saying "I don't deserve to live. I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them." and “I AM EVIL I DID THIS” shows a consciousness of guilt.

FACT: In all the incidents she was charged with, not only was she on the ward, she was physically in the rooms with the victims, and in nearly every case, she was seen to be interacting with the babies shortly before their collapses.

FACT: Letby was the only person, doctor or nurse, who was on duty in that ward at the time all those babies were harmed.
[IMGw=800]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/404cze20lv1esq993qjbe/Exhibit-CEF16-Letby.jpg?rlkey=kqzshnqcbtv1n9q6oe7d6xubm&raw=1[/IMGw]

This is basically a complete list of collapses where the prosecution says deliberate harm was involved. Yes, there were a few other deaths and collapses on the ward (six in all) but none of them showed any evidence of foul play or deliberate harm, so those incidents are not relevant to the case. The defense knew this. Its why they didn't spend much time attacking the veracity of the chart itself, or trying to bring in a statistical expert to undermine it, and instead, chose to attack the causes of deaths and collapses in order to question whether they were really result of foul play.

This chart points very strongly towards her being the only one responsible - "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action". I wonder what Fleming would have called 25 times?

FACT: The suspicious deaths and collapses stopped when she was finally removed from the ward. There was a change to the ward after she was removed. They reduced the number of babies in the ward by increasing the minimum gestation for premature babies they would accept from 27 to 32 weeks. While this would result in a fall anyway due to them taking on less complicated cases, Dr Gibbs (a retired consultant pediatrician who worked at the Countess of Chester Hospital) said the fall in suspicious collapse numbers was much greater than these changes account for.

Lucy Letby is as guilty as sin. There is absolutely zero doubt in my mind that she did was she was accused and found guilty of. 24 jurors agree.

NOTE: Disturbingly, she may even be responsible for more deaths. Police are investigating at Liverpool Women's Hospital where two babies died while Letby was training. There was also another suspicious baby death at Countess of Chester Hospital in 2014, previous to the cluster of deaths and collapses in 2015/16.
 
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This is some of the evidence presented in court.

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Just a tiny sample of the huge amount of evidence shown in court.
 
A British Nurse Was Found Guilty of Killing Seven Babies. Did She Do It?
Colleagues reportedly called Lucy Letby an “angel of death,” and the Prime Minister condemned her. But, in the rush to judgment, serious questions about the evidence were ignored.

https://archive.ph/AWpyz

smartcooky and trustbutverify have "0.0%" doubt in the conviction, so they have no need to read the article. But Darat might find it interesting.

Also interesting that it appears on the same day as these, ostensibly unconnected, articles:

Women having ‘harrowing’ births as hospitals hide failures, says MPs’ report

'Horrendous birth experience left me needing therapy'

I listened to the New Yorker article. I realize that journalists can spin things and that there is something of a Serial Effect where dubious opinions for someone’s innocence is put forward in place of apparently obvious guilt, but in this case a very good argument is made for confirmation bias as well as an institutional problem that required a scapegoat.
 
Well, it took me a while, but I read all of it... and none of it changes my opinion. The fact that she was caught in the act of harming a child pretty much seals it for me...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...w-did-a-nurse-commit-such-unthinkable-murders

At about 9pm on 3 August 2015 a mother arrived on the neonatal unit with expressed breast milk for her five-day-old twin boys, known in court as Child E and Child F. The boys were born 11 weeks premature but had made such good progress they were due to leave Chester for a hospital closer to their home. As their mother arrived, a “horrendous” scream pierced the dimly lit corridor outside nursery one. She rushed in and saw Letby standing near Child E’s incubator. Her son had fresh blood around his mouth and was in extreme distress.

The mother asked Letby what was happening and the nurse, who wore a yellow butterfly sticker on her name badge, reassured her that he was OK and the blood was just from a feeding tube rubbing his throat. She should go back to the postnatal ward and rest, the nurse said. Two hours later the doctors were racing to save Child E’s life. He had lost more than a quarter of his blood and the skin on his tummy had turned purple and white – similar to the discoloration described for three of the nurse’s previous victims.

He was pronounced dead at 1.40am. His mother, “just broken” by her loss, allowed Letby to bathe her dead son before wrapping his 1.4kg (3lb) frame in the smallest white gown the nurse could find. His brother was her next target. This time Letby tried a crude new tactic – she poisoned Child F with insulin.

He had been prescribed a tiny dose of insulin to help regulate his blood sugar levels two days after his birth, and was being fed fluid nutrients from a bag connected via an intravenous long line to his leg. In the early hours of 5 August, just 24 hours after his twin had died, Letby injected insulin into the bag connected to Child F’s veins and added more to a replacement bag that would be used when the first ran out. If the first did not kill him, the second almost certainly would.

The five-day-old boy’s heart rate surged and his blood sugar levels plummeted; one of his legs swelled. The doctors, perplexed, changed the fluid bag but saw no improvement. Little did they know the insulin was still dripping into Child F’s body. Only when doctors decided to withdraw the second fluid bag did he begin to recover. Results later showed that Child F had “extremely high” insulin levels along with very low C-peptide levels in his blood. It was conclusive proof that someone had given him a large unprescribed dose of insulin and that a poisoner was at work

IMO, there is no way to handwave these two incident away as some unfortunate coincidental accident.

You can’t “handwave away” the death of a 1.4kg baby? Seriously!? That’s an extremely underweight baby.

As for the insulin one, this seems extremely elaborate from what I understand.

Read or Listen to the article again.
 
Two more articles in the press this weekend.

One in the Independent, by David James Smith, former commissioner at the Criminal Cases Review Commission, and one in the Mail by Peter Hitchens.

Hitchens on one side, Vixen on the other. They're not making this easy!

Do you really think the College of Policing and Chester Police - not to mention the CPS - are unaware of such issues? Why do you think it took them seven years to be absolutely sure there was probable cause?

Peter Hitchins is a columnist. He is paid to be controversial and opinionated.

Think about the parents and the neonatals who never got to live, plus their siblings who are now without a brother or sister. The romantic view that 'Letby is innocent because people don't understand coincidence and NHS understaffing...and...and...nobody actually SAW her do it, did they?' is a mindless sport instead of the serious heinous crime that was committed.
 
Yeah, but you think everybody is guilty.

I understand how criminal law works. There is a section of the population with a romantic view of life. They fail to grasp that not everybody is wired normally, thus they cannot believe someone could commit a heinous crime. Also people are gullible. It only takes Peter Hitchens or similar to write a column in a popular tabloid claiming, for example, that Covid-19 was a hoax and that Wayne Couzens was a miscarriage of justice and he didn't kill Sarah Everard, and people believe it. Not caring about denying the victim/s family justice by their trolling.
 
No kidding.

Why would you give more credence to Peter Hitchens' ravings than the rule of law?

In addition to fanning hatred of women and gay people while helping to legitimize poverty, Hitchens also helped fan the flames of the anti-MMR vaccine hysteria. He has consistently promoted and attempted to justify his pseudo-scientific outlook by citing the disgraced former physician and medical researcher, Andrew Wakefield, who was one of the modern movement’s originators.
https://medium.com/@renegadeinc/the-bizarre-world-of-peter-hitchens-renegade-inc-65ef72bf7c1b
 

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