Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

[Poem]

More on the Miller Test which is used in the US supreme court to determine if something is obscene:

The Miller test asks for an interpretation of what the "average" person finds offensive, rather than what the more sensitive persons in the community are offended by, as obscenity was defined by the previous test, the Hicklin test, stemming from the English precedent.

In practice, pornography showing genitalia and sexual acts is not ipso facto obscene according to the Miller test. For instance, in 2000, a jury in Provo, Utah, took only a few minutes to clear Larry Peterman, owner of a Movie Buffs video store, in Utah County, Utah. He had been charged with distributing obscene material for renting pornographic videos that were displayed in a screened-off area of the store clearly marked as adults-only. The Utah County region had often boasted of being one of the most socially conservative areas in the United States. However, researchers had shown that guests at the local Marriott Hotel were disproportionately large consumers of pay-per-view pornographic material, accessing far more material than the store was distributing.

This seems unequivocal - porn consumption was normalized at the local hotel therefore it cannot be considered obscene else folk wouldn't be watching it.

 

[Poem]

There's a major difference between sexual assault and being sent an unsolicited dick pic. I don't say that to excuse unsolicited dick pics, but you're moving the goalpost. They aren't the same, and you aren't doing your credibility any favors by conflating them.

Your are correct again - but instances of sexual abuse and assaults are occurring.

 

[Ziggurat]

Your are correct again - but instances of sexual abuse and assaults are occurring.

I have never suggested otherwise.

 

[Poem]

I have never suggested otherwise.

This from the Online Safety (re-committed clauses and schedules) Bill (time: 9:50:34):

"We absolutely do know that access to this type of extreme and abusive porn is a direct factor in violence against women and girls...we see this played out in the court system every day. We've seen people put on trial and they claim that they are actually watching this type of porn...have become addicted to it....seeking to play that out in their relationships...and that has resulted in the deaths of women."

 

[Ziggurat]

This from the Online Safety (re-committed clauses and schedules) Bill (time: 9:50:34):

"We absolutely do know that access to this type of extreme and abusive porn is a direct factor in violence against women and girls...we see this played out in the court system every day. We've seen people put on trial and they claim that they are actually watching this type of porn...have become addicted to it....seeking to play that out in their relationships...and that has resulted in the deaths of women."

Murderers try to blame other people for the fact that they murdered someone.

Why do you believe them?

 

[Poem]

Murderers try to blame other people for the fact that they murdered someone.

Why do you believe them?

The quote does not ascribe blame on the porn - but it is 'a direct factor'. If it is know that one is unlikely to be convicted for rape or sexual assault and the porn one is consuming normalizes it, then..........

Murder would of course be at the extreme end of such behaviour.

Internet porn is obviously obscene and the Miller Test merely registers our unrestrained base nature.

 

[Ziggurat]

The quote does not ascribe blame on the porn - but it is 'a direct factor'.

The murderers themselves are putting the blame on porn. Because they don't want to accept all the blame themselves.

Again, why do you believe them?

Internet porn is obviously obscene and the Miller Test merely registers our unrestrained base nature.

And? To the extent that our nature is base (and I don't disagree), how much of a change does porn actually make? Is porn actually a driver of pathologies, or is it only an indicator? That's what you haven't teased out from the associations you've established. I'm not sure you even understand that problem.

 

[Poem]

The murderers themselves are putting the blame on porn. Because they don't want to accept all the blame themselves.

Again, why do you believe them?

That's an inference.

And? To the extent that our nature is base (and I don't disagree), how much of a change does porn actually make? Is porn actually a driver of pathologies, or is it only an indicator? That's what you haven't teased out from the associations you've established. I'm not sure you even understand that problem.

Why is the internet rife with violent porn, porn suggesting sexual activity with children, simulated rape porn etc? You think the children who are acting out this stuff are naturally that way inclined? Studies show that consumers tend to escalate to more extreme material as they become desensitized.

 

[Ziggurat]

That's an inference.

So are all your conclusions. So are the conclusions of your sources. They are inferring that the porn consumption of these criminals contributed to their sexual abuse. But it's just as possible that their proclivity to sexually abuse others also led to their porn consumption.

Why is the internet rife with violent porn, porn suggesting sexual activity with children, simulated rape porn etc? You think the children who are acting out this stuff are naturally that way inclined?

What children are you talking about? It can't be children in porn, because that's child porn, that's not merely "suggestive", that is very illegal, and I don't think it is "rife". Are you saying that children are copying what they see in porn? That would be a new claim. So far you've mostly talked about adults abusing children because of the porn that the adults have consumed, but that's adults acting out stuff, not children acting out stuff. So I'm at a loss as to how to even interpret what you're saying here.

Studies show that consumers tend to escalate to more extreme material as they become desensitized.

I don't doubt that. But studies have not shown that such consumption leads to actual sexual abuse or rape. That's where you're making a logical leap without evidence to back it up.

 

[Poem]

What children are you talking about? It can't be children in porn, because that's child porn, that's not merely "suggestive", that is very illegal, and I don't think it is "rife". Are you saying that children are copying what they see in porn? That would be a new claim. So far you've mostly talked about adults abusing children because of the porn that the adults have consumed, but that's adults acting out stuff, not children acting out stuff. So I'm at a loss as to how to even interpret what you're saying here.

To clarify: Children are watching porn and then acting it out for real. Most child abuse in the UK is now perpetrated by children.

 

[theprestige]

I don't doubt that. But studies have not shown that such consumption leads to actual sexual abuse or rape. That's where you're making a logical leap without evidence to back it up.

It seems reasonable that people who get off from porn will escalate to more extreme porn. Though, in my experience, that's only up to a point.

And it seems reasonable that people who get off on physical intercourse will also escalate - or does it? How many people with a healthy sex life actually escalate to something unhealthy?

 

[Ziggurat]

To clarify: Children are watching porn and then acting it out for real. Most child abuse in the UK is now perpetrated children.

Are these children watching porn "suggesting children", or does porn of adults as adults do the same thing?

And I also suspect that most of these children sexually abusing other children live in homes without their fathers. But that's a harder problem to crack and much more sensitive, so politicians go for the easier targets.

 

[Poem]

Are these children watching porn "suggesting children", or does porn of adults as adults do the same thing?

I don't think I have read anything that points to any particular type of porn.

And I also suspect that most of these children sexually abusing other children live in homes without their fathers. But that's a harder problem to crack and much more sensitive, so politicians go for the easier targets.

Evidence? Sure, there are probably many reason but child experts are screaming 'porn'. A child without a father but no access to porn probably won't go out a try to choke their 'girl friend' during sexual activity. Where else are these youngsters learning about this?

A functioning society needs the traditional family unit. No it doesn't have to be 100% traditional - but making a child and bringing that child up generally needs a stable woman / man relationship.

Porn is a threat to that.

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't think I have read anything that points to any particular type of porn.

But you keep referring to "porn suggesting sexual activity with children".

Evidence? Sure, there are probably many reason but child experts are screaming 'porn'.

"Experts". Lots of people claim to

A child without a father but no access to porn probably won't go out a try to choke their 'girl friend' during sexual activity.

Possibly not that specific crime, but they're likely to lash out in other ways, including sexual assault. People with poor impulse control and antisocial tendencies are going to cause problems one way or another. The inspiration for their particular misbehavior isn't really the problem, their poor impulse control and antisocial tendencies are. And factors like the lack of a father in the home are much bigger contributors to that than internet porn.

A functioning society needs the traditional family unit. No it doesn't have to be 100% traditional - but making a child and bringing that child up generally needs a stable woman / man relationship.

Porn is a threat to that.

I'm basically in agreement with this. But that's not really rape culture. It's more hookup culture.

 

[junkshop]

...making a child and bringing that child up generally needs a stable woman / man relationship...

********.

My sister did a ******* great job of bringing up my niece, after her dad ran away back to Australia when the kid was six months old.

My lesbian next-door neighbours are excellent parents to their son.

...Porn is a threat to that.

How so?


Please disregard this post.
Irritation and an excess of spirit (of the Earthly variety) undid my resolve to not engage with this thread. It was a moment of weakness, and one that I hope shall not be repeated.

 

[Emily's Cat]

good memory.

i dont know how old you are but i think in many ways the internet we grew up with was a lot more innocent and friendly than the one that exists now. i think that’s pretty scary for people growing up with it now.

It's pretty scary for those of us who are already grown up! At 50, there's a whole lot of stuff that I absolutely will NOT type into my search bar because the internet is a terrifying place.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Until 16 kids should have no access to a non-curated Internet. I would now ban unlocked down smartphones for kids.

Darat for Minister of Common Sense Child Safeguards!

 

[Checkmite]

In the US obscenity is determined by the Miller test - part of which has:

Whether "the average person, applying contemporary community standards", would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,

We know that most people watch porn and therefore most people are normalized to it. That means the 'average person applying contemporary community standards' is already comfortable with it.

Why would we test whether something is obscene or not by asking the society that fuels the very material in question?

Because the term "obscenity", by definition, describes things that offend common sensibilities. If most people are okay with something, it's not obscene. That's why porn in general has not been banned but material featuring actual children is, for instance.

What sort of porn is not bad Checkmite? If the tendency for consumers was not to escalate and seek more and more extreme material, why isn't porn saturated with the 'vanilla' type?

It is. While things involving choking, implied incest, and other such problems are certainly more common than I'd personally prefer, it would be just plain wrong to assert that "vanilla" content as you call it has been altogether flooded out or reduced to some small minority of the content that's available.

 

[theprestige]

There's also a nuance to obscenity: A lot of people who are comfortable consuming extreme pornography in privacy or with the polite fiction of anonymity would consider it obscene to display that same pornography in public, or to children.

It does not follow from the proclivity of hotel guests to consume hotel porn, that those guests don't still consider it obscene.

---

A lot of people do not frown on social drunkenness, but still consider public drunkenness a shameful condition.

 

[Poem]

********.

My sister did a ******* great job of bringing up my niece, after her dad ran away back to Australia when the kid was six months old.

My lesbian next-door neighbours are excellent parents to their son.

How so?


Please disregard this post.
Irritation and an excess of spirit (of the Earthly variety) undid my resolve to not engage with this thread. It was a moment of weakness, and one that I hope shall not be repeated.

No quarrel with this. I was speaking in terms of simple biology.