Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

Poem said:
Since mainstream porn is reflective of where society is in terms of their sexual proclivities, then I'd say your argument is academic. Porn suggesting activity with children is de facto normalized.
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Not seen any evidence of that so far in this thread.
 
Darat said:
Not seen any evidence of that so far in this thread.
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It's rife on mainstream porn sites because no one wants it there? It's rife because it's watched.

Are we talking at cross-purposes?
 
Darat said:
How?
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According to TRT World:

What governments do is order internet service providers (ISPs) to restrict network connectivity or block certain websites or apps.

Can people bypass the shutdowns?

Yes, to a point. In some cases, getting a virtual private network (VPN) can allow users to securely connect to the internet and access banned or blocked web pages and apps. Many users in Myanmar are currently turning to VPNs or using international SIM cards to access blocked sites and communications services during the blackouts.

Since governments can limit access at the server level, meaning that it can control all traffic coming in and out at the hardware level, they can make it so that VPNs are not allowed through as well. Most countries don’t do this, but there have been efforts to block, limit, and/or ban VPNs in places like Kashmir, Russia, and China.
 
Poem said:
The conviction rate is somewhere under 2% in the UK and similar in other western countries.
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Not really relevant to the point, which was why the number of reported rapes went up from around 2012. In the UK, that low conviction rate is partly due to a decision in 2016/17 by the CPS to drastically reduce the number of rape cases that went to prosecution, which inevitably led to a lower conviction rate. https://victimscommissioner.org.uk/...oday-your-chances-of-seeing-justice-are-slim/
 
zooterkin said:
Not really relevant to the point, which was why the number of reported rapes went up from around 2012. In the UK, that low conviction rate is partly due to a decision in 2016/17 by the CPS to drastically reduce the number of rape cases that went to prosecution, which inevitably led to a lower conviction rate. https://victimscommissioner.org.uk/...oday-your-chances-of-seeing-justice-are-slim/
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Sure...I was just contextualizing that 'rise in the conviction rate'.
 
In her 2021/22 Annual Report, Dame Vera Baird reflects on the investigation and prosecution of rape in England and Wales.
In my first annual report in 2020, I made headlines by saying that we were witnessing the effective decriminalisation of rape. During my subsequent years in post as Victims’ Commissioner, little has swayed me from that perspective. Despite a long-delayed end-to-end rape review, various governmental action plans and plenty of tinkering round the edges, you can’t escape the numbers; they continue to speak for themselves.
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zooterkin said:
Not really relevant to the point, which was why the number of reported rapes went up from around 2012. In the UK, that low conviction rate is partly due to a decision in 2016/17 by the CPS to drastically reduce the number of rape cases that went to prosecution, which inevitably led to a lower conviction rate. https://victimscommissioner.org.uk/...oday-your-chances-of-seeing-justice-are-slim/
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EDA: I think it's the case that prosecutions have gone up but convictions have actually gone down..........
 
Assuming the rise in rapes in the UK is real and not an artifact of reporting changes, do you have evidence that porn is a significant contributor? Because I can think of other possible factors. For example, with the whole grooming gangs scandal, I don't recall hearing anything about porn being a factor. But I do recall another politically inconvenient factor at play: immigrants from Muslim countries.

In other words, the UK seems to have imported actual rape culture from countries where rape culture means actual rape.
 
Ziggurat said:
Assuming the rise in rapes in the UK is real and not an artifact of reporting changes, do you have evidence that porn is a significant contributor? Because I can think of other possible factors. For example, with the whole grooming gangs scandal, I don't recall hearing anything about porn being a factor. But I do recall another politically inconvenient factor at play: immigrants from Muslim countries. In other words, the UK seems to have imported actual rape culture from countries where rape culture means actual rape.
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You may recall it - but it isn't a fact, there were two gangs caught and prosecuted that were mainly 1st generation immigrants, some were indeed Muslim but Muslims are probably not overly present in such gangs.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65174096

...snip...

Research has found that group-based child sexual exploitation offenders are most commonly white."

"Some studies suggest an over-representation of Black and Asian offenders relative to the demographics of national populations."

It found there was limited research on offender identity and poor quality data, which made it difficult to draw conclusions, however "it is likely that no one community or culture is uniquely predisposed to offending".
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Darat said:
You may recall it - but it isn't a fact, there were two gangs caught and prosecuted that were mainly 1st generation immigrants, some were indeed Muslim but Muslims are probably not overly present in such gangs.Research has found that group-based child sexual exploitation offenders are most commonly white."

"Some studies suggest an over-representation of Black and Asian offenders relative to the demographics of national populations."

It found there was limited research on offender identity and poor quality data, which made it difficult to draw conclusions, however "it is likely that no one community or culture is uniquely predisposed to offending".
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This is correct.
 
porch said:
Regarding the part I bolded: That's an extreme philosophy that goes way beyond "thinking of the children", in either sense of the phrase.
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Since porn suggesting sexual activity with children has been normalized then I am not sure we can trust that society knows what is or isn't degrading any more.
 
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Poem said:
Since mainstream porn is reflective of where society is in terms of their sexual proclivities, then I'd say your argument is academic. Porn suggesting activity with children is de facto normalized.
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That has no bearing on anything I've said. Porn is bad when there's bad things in it; when those things are not present, it's not bad. "Bad porn is more common than not-bad porn" may well be true but it doesn't change the definitions.
 
Darat said:
You may recall it - but it isn't a fact, there were two gangs caught and prosecuted that were mainly 1st generation immigrants, some were indeed Muslim but Muslims are probably not overly present in such gangs.
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You say that based on what, exactly? Not your link. Your link doesn't support that conclusion. At best, it says that there's not enough data. But that was rather the problem with those grooming gangs, wasn't it? Authorities didn't know what was going on because they were willfully blind to the problem. Do you think that was a one-off? Do you think that they've changed their ways, and now are on top of the problem? Or is it possible that they don't have enough data because they aren't really looking?
 
Poem said:
Since porn suggesting sexual activity with children has been normalized
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You keep saying this, but other than appealing to some supposed authorities, I don't get where this is coming from. Nor do I trust your authorities are actually authorities, and that their criteria for evaluating what's "suggesting sexual activity with children" is reasonable.
 
Darat said:
I'm confused how you think I haven't answered that. The pornography that is mentioned is already illegal in the UK, and is subject to being "shut down" right now, and the people involved in any part of making or distributing it are in line to be prosecuted and if found guilty be jailed for many years and any profits made will be seized. Is that clear enough?
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Darat said:
The current situation is that the porn that was described in your quotation is illegal, it is prosecuted when cases can be made, people go to prison. I can't think how clearer as a society we can be that we find such porn not only wrong but abhorrent.
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When I first read these posts I was also under the impression that such porn was illegal, but that is not the case. It's illegal on DVD and Blu Ray but it is perfectly legal on the internet. None of it is being shut down.

On page 4 of the Bernardo's report it says:

Pornographic content that is illegal offline, but legal online

Online pornography platforms host videos depicting sexual activity with actors or characters who look like children: petite, young-looking performers made to look underage through props such as stuffed toys, lollipops and school uniforms and sexual activity between family members, particularly step-families. Although not strictly illegal, this is extremely harmful, sexualising children and driving the demand for ‘real’ child sexual abuse material.
 
Ziggurat said:
You keep saying this, but other than appealing to some supposed authorities, I don't get where this is coming from. Nor do I trust your authorities are actually authorities, and that their criteria for evaluating what's "suggesting sexual activity with children" is reasonable.
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The UK government's Online Safety Bill took advice from Bernardo's who said:

Along with other charities, Bernardo’s has played a role in making sure that the Act is fit for purpose.

Bernardo's cite bodies such as 'The Police Foundation' and 'The British Journal of Criminology' in their evidence.

Your evidence that that such material isn't normalized is what? Are you denying that mainstream porn sites are awash with it?
 
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