Transwomen are not Women - Part 14

[Emily's Cat]

Thanks for your reply.
I was really just asking if I was being annoying because maybe a lot of what I was asking was common knowledge or been done to death.

This is one of those nuance bits. Yes, it's been gone through before, but it's been spread over the course of several years now in various bits and pieces. This is the type of material that it seems reasonable for someone to ask questions about.

It gets annoying when the questions being asked are very basic fundamentals that have been addressed in great depth multiple times by many people. And then it's mostly just exhaustion. I don't want to have to type up a lecture on the role of sexual reproduction in evolution and why there are only two sexes again. I've done so about a dozen times already, and several other posters have as well.

 

[theprestige]

This is one of those nuance bits. Yes, it's been gone through before, but it's been spread over the course of several years now in various bits and pieces. This is the type of material that it seems reasonable for someone to ask questions about.

It gets annoying when the questions being asked are very basic fundamentals that have been addressed in great depth multiple times by many people. And then it's mostly just exhaustion. I don't want to have to type up a lecture on the role of sexual reproduction in evolution and why there are only two sexes again. I've done so about a dozen times already, and several other posters have as well.

Part of the problem is that a lot of people are making every effort to avoid the discussion, but still want to share their opinions on the topic from time to time.

 

[d4m10n]

I can't tell if you're trying to be funny here, or if you seriously think that cops can't tell that a male in a dress is actually male without checking their license.

I was joking about the perp running off after leaving his/her/their license in the hands of the constabulary, but if I'm being serious I'd say it is worth asking why certain vital statistics (e.g. eye color, height, weight) are included on identification documents in the first place and whether sex at birth is in there for the same reasons.

"Gender", to the extent that it's different than sex, is not useful identifying information.

I respectfully disagree, at least in the event gender is listed separately from sex at birth.

 

[Ziggurat]

I respectfully disagree, at least in the event gender is listed separately from sex at birth.

What on earth about it is useful?

 

[d4m10n]

What on earth about it is useful?

A male attempting to be seen by the world as female is generally easier to identify. In my experience, you can usually spot cross-dressing even sooner than eye color.

 

[Matthew Best]

My driving licence says "usually wears jeans and a t-shirt". I assume yours says something similar?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Part of the problem is that a lot of people are making every effort to avoid the discussion, but still want to share their opinions on the topic from time to time.

The reaction to this behavior is always a bit interesting. Those who most loudly object to this thread feel entitled to comment about the topic elsewhere... but if those who participate in this thread do so, well, we've seen the result of that.

 

[Ziggurat]

A male attempting to be seen by the world as female is generally easier to identify.

Perhaps. But that doesn't actually answer my question, because the gender on the ID card doesn't guarantee that they're trying to be seen as that sex at the moment. A male listed with a gender identity of male could still cross-dress, and a male listed with a gender identity of female could still try to present as male. I compared listing gender identity as being like listing your favorite flavor of icecream, but perhaps a better comparison would be listing your favorite color. It may correspond to what you're wearing, but it's certainly not guaranteed to.

I could see how surgical status might be a useful identifier. For example, a male with breast implants is going to look different than a male without breast implants, and that's identifying information. But that's not gender identity, certainly not if we are to accept self-ID.

 

[d4m10n]

But that doesn't actually answer my question, because the gender on the ID card doesn't guarantee that they're trying to be seen as that sex at the moment.

Okay, but that argument also militates against having "sex" on the i.d. cards since some folks are tryna look like the opposite sex pretty much of the time.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Okay, but that argument also militates against having "sex" on the i.d. cards since some folks are tryna look like the opposite sex pretty much of the time.

Tryna look and successfully lookin aren't the same things

 

[Sherkeu]

Okay, but that argument also militates against having "sex" on the i.d. cards since some folks are tryna look like the opposite sex pretty much of the time.

The reason is not for the public or law enforcement or any type,of rational governmental reason.
The only reason is for the psychological needs of persons with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and that a 'lie' accommodated for this tiny minority of persons is a small sacrifice to help people live normal lives. Great. It's literally almost no one affected. Right?

Problem is that this (increasingly easier) available switcheroo quickly became abused for some to claim another gender at every opportunity where it was advantageous to themselves. And they had backup for it! Actual advocacy groups lent support, even if they were male identifying sex offenders just weeks beforehand.

Live and learn.
Human nature often disappoints when given an incentive.
The actual normal trans persons lose out. We should have left well enough alone.

 

[d4m10n]

Tryna look and successfully lookin aren't the same things

Okay, but some people (e.g. most natal females on T) pass fairly well. It would be helpful for identification purposes to know that their chosen gender doesn't match their sex at birth. What advantage does sex only have over sex and gender listed separately?

 

[Sherkeu]

Okay, but some people (e.g. most natal females on T) pass fairly well. It would be helpful for identification purposes to know that their chosen gender doesn't match their sex at birth. What advantage does sex only have over sex and gender listed separately?

One of them always describes a fact.
Facts are better than 'let's allow persons to list the choices over time to appear a certain way other than the factual scientific answer on official documents'

 

[d4m10n]

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3L9tVfVR5sJzrcqGuNlXSW?si=IntGMuOESoq-iZH2MnNEQw

Kathleen's story shows the dangers of a rigid ideology from providers and activists who say anything other than immediate gender affirmation is abuse, but there's also a dangerously rigid ideology coming from politicians.​

I know most posters here won't be interested in a balanced treatment of this issue, but I found this episode did a fine job of empathizing with parents on both sides.

 

[d4m10n]

One of them always describes a fact.

Okay, but it's not a fact that is remotely obvious in the event that someone is passing and clothed. If you want to identify that person, it helps to know what gender they think themselves to be.

 

[Elaedith]

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3L9tVfVR5sJzrcqGuNlXSW?si=IntGMuOESoq-iZH2MnNEQw

Kathleen's story shows the dangers of a rigid ideology from providers and activists who say anything other than immediate gender affirmation is abuse, but there's also a dangerously rigid ideology coming from politicians.​

I know most posters here won't be interested in a balanced treatment of this issue, but I found this episode did a fine job of empathizing with parents on both sides.

Not available in my region.

 

[Sherkeu]

Okay, but it's not a fact that is remotely obvious in the event that someone is passing and clothed. If you want to identify that person, it helps to know what gender they think themselves to be.

Butch lesbians dressed as men like to be considered 'women'. They do not like it when people assume they are trans nowadays. The way they dress doesn't make them a man.

But ok...maybe it helps some trans persons with deep psychological issues or expressive tendencies.

Now do the furries. Then the lizards, the satan horned people, the fake blind people, the super fat skinnies, etc... We should let everyone pretend if they really really want to do it and have an ID to match.
Let's be kind to all.

Et a. My daughter tells me she knows 'cat' persons at her school. So there is another totally valid category for when they get a drivers license.

I mean, don't we want to know beforehand that they usually dress like a cat?

 

[theprestige]

Okay, but it's not a fact that is remotely obvious in the event that someone is passing and clothed. If you want to identify that person, it helps to know what gender they think themselves to be.

State trooper makes a traffic stop. Compares the driver's ID to the driver. It's not clear to me how "Male, but Femme" or "A dude, might be wearing a dress today" is any more helpful to the cop than "Male".

In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of *any* scenario where it's helpful to me, or to society, to know what gender a person thinks themselves to be.

ETA: Okay, thought of one. If you're a mental health professional considering a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and accompanying treatment plan, then yes, it's helpful to society to know what your patient is thinking, gender-wise.

On the other hand, society has deemed gender identification to be unhelpful in certain situations. Hiring. Renting or selling a house. Things like that, noticing or caring about someone's gender self-ID is unhelpful.

---

And can you imagine Amber Alerts, for example? "Red Toyota Corolla, [LIC], driver is a white male, but be advised he thinks of himself as a woman."

Or even worse: "Driver is a white male, be advised he also identifies as a white male."

 

[Paul2]

Okay, but it's not a fact that is remotely obvious in the event that someone is passing and clothed. If you want to identify that person, it helps to know what gender they think themselves to be.

I look at sex designation on an ID card as not necessarily being solely determinative in some specific situation, but, rather, a fundamental distinguishing characteristic - like height, weight (less so, as it can fluctuate), color of eyes, etc., so that, if something goes amiss, or there are questions, or something doesn't add up, authorities have several of these fundamental characteristics and can cross-check them to make sure it all adds up, and if it doesn't add up, then further investigation is warranted.

ETA: I am not a civil authority, so who knows? I'm guessing.

 

[d4m10n]

Butch lesbians dressed as men like to be considered 'women'. They do not like it when people assume they are trans nowadays. The way they dress doesn't make them a man.

If an identification document had both sex and gender, it would say "female" for the former and "woman" for the latter if we're talking about butch lesbians who identify as women rather than non-binary.

Now do the furries. Then the lizards, the satan horned people, the fake blind people, the super fat skinnies, etc... We should let everyone pretend if they really really want to do it and have an ID to match.

Assuming furry activists are asking for a special marker on their i.d. cards wouldn't that be a problem for another thread? I'm tempted to address it here, but not all that much.