Merged 2024 Election Thread

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johnny karate said:
Your opinion has been duly noted.

I’m still not seeing a positive case being made for why Sanders is now or ever was a viable option to replace Biden.
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Trump would eat Sanders for breakfast.
Irony is of course, the Bernie Bros are just a much a cult of personality as the Trump supporters.
 
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I hope all the people where who will not vote for Biden because he is not far enough to the left are happy with Trump 2.0.
It's a bit too much like Germany in 1933, where many on the hard left refused to vote for Anti Hitler Candidates because they were not far enough to the left, The KPD..German Communist Party was the worst offender.
 
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dudalb said:
Trump would eat Sanders for breakfast.
Irony is of course, the Bernie Bros are just a much a cult of personality as the Trump supporters.
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I think Trump would win because the socialist label would turn off a lot of independents and moderate Dems. However, many polls in 2020 had him beating T by a larger margin than Biden, so hard to say, he could gain anti-establishment folks who currently would vote for Trump just to create chaos.

The 'Bernie Bros' may have some casual similarities to T's cult, but the major difference is that Bernie does not demand absolute fealty from his supporters, and most of his core supporters (such as myself, I voted for him in the 2020 primary) support him not because of who he is but for the progressive platform he advocates. The supporters who do tend to be more groupie-like are a very small number, far smaller than MAGA.
 
johnny karate said:
I’m still not seeing a positive case being made for why Sanders is now or ever was a viable option to replace Biden.
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For the present situation, it's not about Bernie and whoever brought him up had no reason to do so that I know of; it's just the fact that he's not Biden, and practically any Democrat would be an improvement over Biden. The point for the present situation has never been about finding any particular unique individual; it's that a unique individual is not needed because even the most mediocre unnoticible swatch of gray paint would be an improvement over the simply terrible, especially while the Republicans are granting us the easiest opponent they could find for us to stomp all over. You've brought up imperfections with the non-Bernie suggestions you've been given so far, but none of those imperfections are anywhere near as bad as just what a uniquely awful excuse for a candidate Biden is. You say a replacement would need to compensate for the "risk" of switching away from Biden, but sticking with Biden is the actual risk; he's the only anchor left holding the party down at this time. If a switch were made, just the relief alone, from actually finally getting to switch at all, would immediately be worth several points for whoever it is, just for being the escape hatch out of the Biden trap.

For anybody who still wants to rehash or stick to the Bernie thing from years ago, even though it's not as if this hasn't already been pointed out a zillion times way back then: Bernie was simply the single most popular politician in the country (and probably still is, and is definitely at least one of the top few anyway), the opponent the last few times and again this time was/is simply the most unpopular in the country's history, Bernie's positions on the issues are the closest to most people's positions on them, Bernie's survey results versus Trump had him beating Trump by around 10-12 points which was about 10-12 more than Biden, and, most of all, winning the DP primaries is about pushing to the right but pushing to the right gets you nowhere against Republicans in the general election. The idea that that's how to win a general election (which was what scared people away from voting for who they actually wanted) was nothing but a myth and a lie, which the results of actual real-world elections keep doing the opposite of over & over again.
 
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The Atheist said:
Nor is Biden.

I see his current disapproval rating at 59%. I think he'd take 47% in a heartbeat.
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Good to know, but I asked for a popular alternative to Biden and you provided a couple of decidedly unpopular options. I’m wondering why.
 
Delvo said:
For the present situation, it's not about Bernie and whoever brought him up had no reason to do so that I know of; it's just the fact that he's not Biden, and practically any Democrat would be an improvement over Biden. The point for the present situation has never been about finding any particular unique individual; it's that a unique individual is not needed because even the most mediocre unnoticible swatch of gray paint would be an improvement over the simply terrible, especially while the Republicans are granting us the easiest opponent they could find for us to stomp all over. You've brought up imperfections with the non-Bernie suggestions you've been given so far, but none of those imperfections are anywhere near as bad as just what a uniquely awful excuse for a candidate Biden is. You say a replacement would need to compensate for the "risk" of switching away from Biden, but sticking with Biden is the actual risk; he's the only anchor left holding the party down at this time. If a switch were made, just the relief alone, from actually finally getting to switch at all, would immediately be worth several points for whoever it is, just for being the escape hatch out of the Biden trap.

For anybody who still wants to rehash or stick to the Bernie thing from years ago, even though it's not as if this hasn't already been pointed out a zillion times way back then: Bernie was simply the single most popular politician in the country (and probably still is, and is definitely at least one of the top few anyway), the opponent the last few times and again this time was/is simply the most unpopular in the country's history, Bernie's positions on the issues are the closest to most people's positions on them, Bernie's survey results versus Trump had him beating Trump by around 10-12 points which was about 10-12 more than Biden, and, most of all, winning the DP primaries is about pushing to the right but pushing to the right gets you nowhere against Republicans in the general election. The idea that that's how to win a general election (which was what scared people away from voting for who they actually wanted) was nothing but a myth and a lie, which the results of actual real-world elections keep doing the opposite of over & over again.
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I don’t buy it and it is mostly irrelevant now, but thank you.

As for “Practically any democrat” being an improvement over Biden… great. Name one.
 
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Dr.Sid said:
Well considering Biden was leading Trump by 10% in 2020, it's not looking good.
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That's not the point. The claim was made that Trump is leading and that's clearly false.

sir drinks-a-lot said:
I linked to the article I read in the Economist, and "Five months out, Donald Trump has a clear lead" was the title they chose.
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Maybe you should read more than the headline in right-wing media. Pretty weak effort all round.

johnny karate said:
Good to know, but I asked for a popular alternative to Biden and you provided a couple of decidedly unpopular options. I’m wondering why.
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I was asked who the closest to Ardern is and put forward Liz Warren. Warren is actually further left than Ardern proved to be when she was in power, but her rhetoric before the election was similar.

As to popularity, I provided Newsom as someone who is more popular than Biden. If there are others who have the visibility of Newsom and are more popular they're staying well hidden. If you want popular, I've given one several times - Michelle Obama. The slight trouble with her is her refusal to stand.
 
dudalb said:
I hope all the people where who will not vote for Biden because he is not far enough to the left are happy with Trump 2.0.
It's a bit too much like Germany in 1933, where many on the hard left refused to vote for Anti Hitler Candidates because they were not far enough to the left, The KPD..German Communist Party was the worst offender.
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I hope you realize that in our electoral system some voters don’t have a chance to change the outcome and will instead vote in a way to send a message to their party.

Your first sentence is nonsense to voters in solidly red or blue states. The only voters who matter are in swing states.
 
Dr.Sid said:
Well considering Biden was leading Trump by 10% in 2020, it's not looking good.
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Biden was voted in by low information voters. "He used to be VP, must know something." Trump was known...too known...to all.

The polls now do not reflect a real choice. The polled people are STILL voting for "somebody else." The low information voters...and young voters...think a new candidate will pop up at the convention.

The independents are largely these low info voters. If they diapprove vaccines, they may vote Kennedy. If they show up to vote at all.


https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/2024/03/independents-im-voting-for-someone-else.html

The polling in this cycle is skewed by a never before factor. The impatient voter only stands for a president four years. We may in fact go into that in the post Trump era. But here, the confusion is that voting for “someone else” or “someone new” is not there. Both are used up candidates.
 
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The Atheist said:
I was asked who the closest to Ardern is and put forward Liz Warren. Warren is actually further left than Ardern proved to be when she was in power, but her rhetoric before the election was similar.

As to popularity, I provided Newsom as someone who is more popular than Biden. If there are others who have the visibility of Newsom and are more popular they're staying well hidden. If you want popular, I've given one several times - Michelle Obama. The slight trouble with her is her refusal to stand.
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To be clear, you described Ardern as “very popular”. That’s the analog I was looking for in the Democratic Party, not where they are on the political spectrum or if they’re more popular than Biden.

Michelle Obama might check the “popularity” box, but as you said, she’s not interested. She’s not even active in politics, so I’m not sure that helps.
 
Dr. Keith said:
I hope you realize that in our electoral system some voters don’t have a chance to change the outcome and will instead vote in a way to send a message to their party.

Your first sentence is nonsense to voters in solidly red or blue states. The only voters who matter are in swing states.
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I know that, but I sitll think anybody on the left who refuses to vote for Biden becuase he is not far enough to the left is an idiot.
I got a feeling this was prompted because I dared to suggest people on the left can do stupid things.
 
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dudalb said:
I know that, but I sitll think anybody on the left who refuses to vote for Biden becuase he is not far enough to the left is an idiot.
I got a feeling this was prompted because I dared to suggest people on the left can do stupid things.
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dudalb, I really think you need to stop worrying about those on the "left", at least whatever you consider to be left over there. The left is not responsible for Trump and what he is doing now. The responsibility for that is entirely the right...including the supposed "sensible" right who decided they should give "Trump a chance" despite warning from the, oh so derided left, that it would be a bad idea.
Even before 2016, Trump's utter inadequacy and failures were consistently highlighted by the left wing, while all the right-wingers by and large the right-wingers made apologies and laughed and talked about how refreshing all those "liberal tears" were.
 
It is telling that we have moved from " lefties can say what they want as long as they vote for Biden" to " lefties have to vote for Biden AND can not publicly criticize him, or else Trump wins ".
 
The Great Zaganza said:
It is telling that we have moved from " lefties can say what they want as long as they vote for Biden" to " lefties have to vote for Biden AND can not publicly criticize him, or else Trump wins ".
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What criticize? the made up stuff on Fox et al that "proves" that Biden is clueless bumbling fool shaking hands with invisible guests?
 
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