• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Bad ideas in war

@Roboramma
Well, obviously alliances and deterrence are the best form of self defense. Otherwise a more powerful actor could snowball by gobbling up smaller states with impunity.

Plus, obviously deterrence is better than an all out war.

Once again I agree with everything you said. But still feel its necessary to point out that sometimes deference means being willing to go to war, or at least do things that might lead to war.

If you fail to go to war with someone who invades your weaker ally in this situation, they or someone else may be emboldened to even more dangerous action that could lead to an even larger war. I think reasonable people can disagree about the applicability in specific examples, but the principle itself, that effective deterrence can sometimes require a willingness to go to war with your enemies, is sound.
 
Once again I agree with everything you said. But still feel its necessary to point out that sometimes deference means being willing to go to war, or at least do things that might lead to war.

If you fail to go to war with someone who invades your weaker ally in this situation, they or someone else may be emboldened to even more dangerous action that could lead to an even larger war. I think reasonable people can disagree about the applicability in specific examples, but the principle itself, that effective deterrence can sometimes require a willingness to go to war with your enemies, is sound.

I thought that was obvious, especially since we had been talking about WW2 stuff, and one only needs to look at how well appeasement worked there.
 
Also if you believe you're probably going to be at war with nation X then maybe better to do so on nation Ys territory so it's not your land, infrastructure etc getting trashed to the same degree.

Not to mention, a great quote from general Patton comes to mind: “No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country.”

Not what he meant, presumably, but ultimately it applies to alliances and proxy wars too.
 
Well, let's try something else than WW2 Germany, or people might start to think I'm biased against Nazis ;)

So, low hanging fruit, Austria-Hungary in WW1, deciding they don't need no sticking armour. And I don't even mean tanks (by that point, Austria couldn't realistically afford them), but even armoured cars. Even after they got their ass kicked by them on the eastern front.

Literally, the first (and IIRC only) Austrian armoured car came too late to make any difference, and it was designed and built AGAINST the wishes of Franz Conrad von Hötzendorf, the Chief of the General Staff at the time.

BTW, if you think I'm just fond of picking on that guy, it was obvious even to his contemporaries that he's incompetent. The future Emperor Charles I of Austria had already complained about just that to Emperor Franz Josef.
 
Yeah, it sucked, but I'm just saying, von Hötzendorf didn't want ANY. Not just when they built a prototype, but even after meeting (better) armoured cars in the war. Those five prototypes were all there were, and more of a case of "well, they already exist, might as well send them somewhere", rather than sponsoring anything.
 
Last edited:
Second Lieutenant George S. Patton (yes, that Patton) designed a brand new cavalry saber in 1913, and wrote a new manual to go with it. This was all a colossal waste of time, as the cavalry saber was already obsolete by then.
 
Ah yes, I'm actually familiar with that one. Not a bad saber design at all, but yeeah... bit obsolete.) To his credit, cavalry being obsolete wasn't clear at the time (hell, to Haig it wasn't clear even after WW1, and to Kliment Voroshilov it wasn't clear even in early 1942), but, as I was saying, something that proved itself to be a bad idea in hindsight does count as a bad idea, so good call.

BTW, great to have an intelligent and pertinent conversation with you. I always knew you were more than capable of one, but occasionally you seem to refuse one :p
 
Ah yes, I'm actually familiar with that one. Not a bad saber design at all, but yeeah... bit obsolete.) To his credit, cavalry being obsolete wasn't clear at the time (hell, to Haig it wasn't clear even after WW1, and to Kliment Voroshilov it wasn't clear even in early 1942), but, as I was saying, something that proved itself to be a bad idea in hindsight does count as a bad idea, so good call.

BTW, great to have an intelligent and pertinent conversation with you. I always knew you were more than capable of one, but occasionally you seem to refuse one : p

I really don't agree that hindsight is a valid metric here. For me it's really hard to think of a truly bad idea in warfare. Times when they (a) should have known better, and (b) had any better options in their time of need, seem very rare to me.

Like Patton and his superiors probably should have known that cavalry charges like that were a thing of the past, and investing so much time and effort in this project was kind of pointless. And they had the option of working on something else instead - a next-gen cavalry doctrine, for example.

Another one I suspect was a bad idea: President Carter and his staff's idea for Operation Eagle Claw. Arguments have been made that the people who conceived the plan knew or should have known it was a bad plan. And they certainly had the option of not putting it into action. See also: Black Hawk Down, and the Bay of Pigs.

I suppose this also includes ideas like Operation Northwoods. It was never put into action, but it does meet the criteria of being obviously bad, and also having the option of doing literally anything else besides Operation Northwoods.

Where we part ways is your preference for using hindsight to judge these ideas. I think that's unfair, and I think it gives us a poor understanding of history and context. I'd much rather understand what actually happened and why, than come away with a "lies to children" impression that an idea was bad simply because they had to act without complete informatoin.

What about bad ideas that succeeded? Those are still bad, right? The Anschluss, for example.

---

Anyway, here's a puzzler for you: The Battle of Khasham.

tl;dr - Wagner mercenaries and Assad-affiliated troops attacked a Syrian rebel base, while there were a few US special forces personnel there. The US troops called it in, and their superiors reached out to the Russian HQ to sort things out. The Russians asserted that there were no Russian troops involved. As a result, the US felt free to open a ridiculously overpowered can of whoop-ass on the attackers. Many Wagnerites died that day.

Was it a bad idea? Whose bad idea?
 
I'm quite open to whatever anyone considers to be a bad idea. I mean, I'm a self-confessed arrogant ass, literally for 15 years straight now. It would be quite hypocritical of me to forbid others from being one :p
 
Another bad idea: 'oh, we'll just take the enemy's fuel', aka, the level of logistics planning for the Battle Of The Bulge :p
 
Another bad idea: 'oh, we'll just take the enemy's fuel', aka, the level of logistics planning for the Battle Of The Bulge :p

It got them across France. Well, those at the very front.
Anyway I saw the film, they almost got there but the Americans poured the fuel down the slope and the German tanks all slipped and skidded in it and couldn't get up the hill to it. Just a few more yards and they would have won the war.

More seriously, it's how the Japanese planned their entire land campaign and was their eventual undoing. They relied on the advancing forces overrunning supplies for everything but ammunition.
That's why their advance in to India got bogged down and stopped by the 'Battle of the Admin Box' at Ngakyedauk Pass and at the latter battles of Imphal and Kohima.
They weren't able to overrun the supplies and after losing the battles the remains of the army literally starved to death on their feet as they were withdrawing.


The 'Battle of the Admin Box' takes its name from the administration area of the Indian Army's 7th Division, which became a makeshift, rectangular defensive position for Major-General Frank Messervy and his staff when they were surrounded by advancing Japanese forces. It was very similar to Bastogne but in the jungle.

General Slim is a very underrated general and the 14th Army very much neglected.
 
Last edited:
More seriously, it's how the Japanese planned their entire land campaign and was their eventual undoing. They relied on the advancing forces overrunning supplies for everything but ammunition.
That's why their advance in to India got bogged down and stopped by the 'Battle of the Admin Box' at Ngakyedauk Pass and at the latter battles of Imphal and Kohima.

They weren't able to overrun the supplies and after losing the battles the remains of the army literally starved to death on as they were withdrawing.

Oh, the Japanese were much worse. Good point there
 
To answer this too, because I'm just that bored:

Anyway, here's a puzzler for you: The Battle of Khasham.

tl;dr - Wagner mercenaries and Assad-affiliated troops attacked a Syrian rebel base, while there were a few US special forces personnel there. The US troops called it in, and their superiors reached out to the Russian HQ to sort things out. The Russians asserted that there were no Russian troops involved. As a result, the US felt free to open a ridiculously overpowered can of whoop-ass on the attackers. Many Wagnerites died that day.

Was it a bad idea? Whose bad idea?

Not much of a puzzle, really, since I already knew about that one, and consider it to be one of the top funny as all heck stories in history. My favourite part was when IIRC the US called the Russians again to confirm to them, "yep, now there are no Russians on the field." :p

Slight correction, though, it wasn't just some random rebel camp, it was an installation formally claimed by the US and in the agreed zone of US control. It's akin to, dunno, Stalin deciding in 1946 to attack something in West Berlin. Just Putin didn't use his own forces, he used Wagner.

So in those conditions, I'm not sure what's puzzling there. There isn't enough vodka in Russia to make me see it as anything else than 'Wagner had a very bad idea, and discovered empirically why it's bad.' Or as they say these days, Wagner <bleep>ed about and found out. (Pretty sure it wasn't a military term in my time, tho;))

Like, seriously, what's the puzzle?
 
Last edited:
Another bad idea: 'oh, we'll just take the enemy's fuel', aka, the level of logistics planning for the Battle Of The Bulge : p

My understanding is that they didn't have much of a choice. High risk, high reward operations are generally considered a good idea in warfare. Generals don't always win battles by taking big risks, but they rarely win battles by playing it safe.
 
True, but at the same time, "amateurs talk about tactics, professionals talk about logistics." Taking a risk without backing it up with the logistics to actually pack a punch is kinda stupid.
 

Back
Top Bottom