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Split Thread Trump Document indictment (as opposed to other indictments)

The Great Zaganza said:
yes, he absolutely is.
He actively suppressed, then sabotaged Antia Hill and her testimony.

Read up on it - Biden knew more than anyone else about how Thomas was a sexual predator to many aides, and could have tanked his nomination.
But that wouldn't have been "bipartisan".

sorry, but this is just a historical fact.

Maybe read up on it.
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Biden, as has much of the country, changed somewhat from 30+ years ago.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Garland is, by his own words, way more interested in getting a case that will (according to Him and Smith)withstand appeal than getting a conviction - that automatically means fewer cases and longer delays.
But that is not his job.
The logical thing would have been to bury Trump in everything he can be charged for and let the Judges decide what sticks and what doesn't.
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I don't think "throwing everything at a defendant and seeing what sticks" is always a good idea.
- Its a waste of government resources
- It can taint later attempts to charge a defendant (if for example more evidence is gathered)
- It can be unfair to a defendant (Yes, there is overwhelming public evidence that Trump has committed multiple crimes in multiple jurisdictions, but as a concept we shouldn't allow the legal system to "target" a potentially innocent person by dumping on frivolous charges.)

Now, I do think Garland probably should have been more aggressive in going after Trump. (He should have appointed Smith much earlier for example). But some caution in a legal case is not necessarily a bad thing.

Remember that Garland was picked by Obama for the Supreme Court, because he had so much support among Republicans and would easily have been confirmed....
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I am sure Obama would have preferred to nominate a younger, more "liberal" candidate for the supreme court. But the republicans definitely would have blocked someone like that, and the democrats did not have the votes to force a candidate like that through.

Obama Picking Garland was not a case of "I really like this middle of the road guy", but more a case of "This is the best we can do".

It should also be noted that Obama's other picks (Sotomayor, Kagan) pretty regularly oppose the "right wing" judges on the court.
 
pgwenthold said:
Yeah, I hate to sound like that conspiracy guy, but it almost seems like the way it's going is, "Oh shoot, he's losing all his court cases, we can't let this go to trial and need to shut it down"
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The Republicans were right when they said the judicial system is corrupt.
 
azazal said:
I'm waiting for Cannon to make a ruling that displeases "The Don" and she comes to realize that she was part of the Face Eating Leopards Party all along. I'm not holding my breath by any means though.
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She won't even have to do that. He'll just wake up one afternoon and decide she's not blonde enough for himand thus public enemy no. 1
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Don't think so.

If Biden wins he probably Will pardon Trump for wherever he can.
And without DOJ support, many State cases might be on hold indefinitely.

If, on the other hand, Trump wins, efforts of States to get him will continue.
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The Great Zaganza said:
Primarily, because Biden won't care what happens to Trump, and a Pardon would make him look like A Great Statesman - or so he thinks. And Biden has been desperate for Republican approval all his career; pardoning Trump would be his way of saying "come on, Jack! We are all friends here!"

It's not like Garland thinks convicting Trump is important.
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I don't agree with any of that. Pardoning Trump would just reinforce the idea that presidents are above the law and Biden has made it clear that Trump is NOT above the law.

"And Biden has been desperate for Republican approval all his career; pardoning Trump would be his way of saying "come on, Jack! We are all friends here!"

This is yet just another "centrists are really just cowardly conservatives" piece of nonsense. Progressives have got to get over disparaging anyone not as far left as they are.
 
Stacyhs said:
I don't agree with any of that. Pardoning Trump would just reinforce the idea that presidents are above the law
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Only Republican presidents are above the law. And the next Republican president will pardon Trump. If we're lucky that'll be several terms down the road. But it'll definitely happen.
 
Stacyhs said:
This is yet just another "centrists are really just cowardly conservatives" piece of nonsense. Progressives have got to get over disparaging anyone not as far left as they are.
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Much the same could be said about "centrists" who disparage progressives for being to the left of them. The problem here isn't the progressive or centrist part, either way. The problem is the somewhat inane potshots that serve no good purpose.
 
Segnosaur said:
I don't think "throwing everything at a defendant and seeing what sticks" is always a good idea.
- Its a waste of government resources
- It can taint later attempts to charge a defendant (if for example more evidence is gathered)
- It can be unfair to a defendant (Yes, there is overwhelming public evidence that Trump has committed multiple crimes in multiple jurisdictions, but as a concept we shouldn't allow the legal system to "target" a potentially innocent person by dumping on frivolous charges.)

Now, I do think Garland probably should have been more aggressive in going after Trump. (He should have appointed Smith much earlier for example). But some caution in a legal case is not necessarily a bad thing.


I am sure Obama would have preferred to nominate a younger, more "liberal" candidate for the supreme court. But the republicans definitely would have blocked someone like that, and the democrats did not have the votes to force a candidate like that through.

Obama Picking Garland was not a case of "I really like this middle of the road guy", but more a case of "This is the best we can do".

It should also be noted that Obama's other picks (Sotomayor, Kagan) pretty regularly oppose the "right wing" judges on the court.
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I don't think having middle of the road SC justices is a bad thing. I'd much rather have all middle of the road justices than far left or far right.
 
Aridas said:
Much the same could be said about "centrists" who disparage progressives for being to the left of them. The problem here isn't the progressive or centrist part, either way. The problem is the somewhat inane potshots that serve no good purpose.
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I haven't seen that here. If you have, can you give me some examples? I've certainly seen many, many potshots at centrists by progressives here.
 
Stacyhs said:
I haven't seen that here. If you have, can you give me some examples? I've certainly seen many, many potshots at centrists by progressives here.
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dudalb is an example of one of the worse offenders, at last check, but hardly the only one. I suppose that if you're limiting it to recently in this thread, though, it hadn't been in evidence, but there is not much good reason to provoke yet another distracting and OT round of centrist vs progressive. Better to focus on the failings of the argument than lashing out indiscriminately.

Either way, as someone who identifies as a progressive, I found TGZ's prediction that Biden would pardon Trump and the later stated reasoning to be worthy of an eye-roll and little more. He'd almost certainly be proven wrong, regardless. Biden isn't a saint, either in the past or now, but the factors in play now are notably different than they were in what he's used to try to justify his claims with.

The DoJ bit has a bit of a better foundation - Garland dragging his feet, failing to prosecute Trump for things like the various cases of obstruction of Justice listed in the Mueller Report, the DoJ engaging in delay tactics - last minute infodump as an example IIRC, and so on. Even so, TGZ's prediction seems off. Trump actively weaponized the DoJ to interfere with all cases at all related to him, including at the state level - and it was not ineffective. The same can be reasonably expected to happen again. Under Biden, the DoJ can be expected to mostly stay in line. Under Trump, it can't.
 
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TragicMonkey said:
Only Republican presidents are above the law. And the next Republican president will pardon Trump. If we're lucky that'll be several terms down the road. But it'll definitely happen.
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Exactly !

That same President in addition to pardoning President Trump because Presidents cannot be prosecuted will launch proceedings against every living Democratic President. :mad:
 
Aridas said:
dudalb is an example of one of the worse offenders, at last check, but hardly the only one.
I've seen dudalb criticize progressives but not for "being to the left" of himas you claimed. I've criticized some progressives for being B and W thinkers, rigidly unwilling to compromise due to wanting everything their way just like the right-wingers do, and for bashing centrists, but I've neve criticized them for being farther to the left than I am.



I suppose that if you're limiting it to recently in this thread, though, it hadn't been in evidence, but there is not much good reason to provoke yet another distracting and OT round of centrist vs progressive. Better to focus on the failings of the argument than lashing out indiscriminately.
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If members don't want to get called out for it, then I suggest they stop the centrist bashing.

Either way, as someone who identifies as a progressive, I found TGZ's prediction that Biden would pardon Trump and the later stated reasoning to be worthy of an eye-roll and little more. He'd almost certainly be proven wrong, regardless. Biden isn't a saint, either in the past or now, but the factors in play now are notably different than they were in what he's used to try to justify his claims with.

The DoJ bit has a bit of a better foundation - Garland dragging his feet, failing to prosecute Trump for things like the various cases of obstruction of Justice listed in the Mueller Report, the DoJ engaging in delay tactics - last minute infodump as an example IIRC, and so on. Even so, TGZ's prediction seems off. Trump actively weaponized the DoJ to interfere with all cases at all related to him, including at the state level - and it was not ineffective. The same can be reasonably expected to happen again. Under Biden, the DoJ can be expected to mostly stay in line. Under Trump, it can't.
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On the above, we agree.
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William Parcher said:
Trump puts forward new effort to throw out classified documents case.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/11/politics/trump-classified-documents-case
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Detectives put the Top Seekrit folders back in their boxes sometimes in a slightly different order to when they took them out. Therefore Trump should walk.

Ridiculous. By rights, that should be thrown back at the defense team with a request to stop wasting the court's time. But it's Cannon, so she will need...maybe six more months??...to decide that.
 
BTW, does anyone know what gun the Trump team is holding to Cannon's head? Sure, she is a Trump appointee and may feel she "owes" him. But plenty of Trump appointed judges have since ruled against Trump. So why is Cannon different and so compliant to Trump's wishes? Is she just that dumb and loyal? Promises of money? Promotion? Or a SCOTUS seat? What?
 
Norman Alexander said:
BTW, does anyone know what gun the Trump team is holding to Cannon's head? Sure, she is a Trump appointee and may feel she "owes" him. But plenty of Trump appointed judges have since ruled against Trump. So why is Cannon different and so compliant to Trump's wishes? Is she just that dumb and loyal? Promises of money? Promotion? Or a SCOTUS seat? What?
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Her Republicanism is like a first-born child to her?
 
Orphia Nay said:
Her Republicanism is like a first-born child to her?
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Fairly obviously. But I'll put that in the "dumb and loyal" column.

I forgot to add that perhaps her "incentive" is not promotion if she does what Trump wants, but demotion, shame and ignominy if she does not. Everyone knows Trump kicks "losers" to the curb instantly. Ask Cohen.

One other option I definitely do not want to entertain is the prospect of Cannon being controlled by more sinister motives, e.g. "we know where your children go to school", or threats of intimidation or even violence, etc., by Trump operatives (Qanon? Proud Boys?)
 
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