General UK politics VII -Return of the Starmer

[Darat]

And, of course, that's nothing at all to do with a right wing press, owned, in the main, by billionaires, who have a vested interest in maintaining the current situation and, even, moving it to the right even more.

Indeed, had his own party not actively worked against him in well documented (but poorly publicised - that's a shock) fashion, there's every chance his "hard left"* policies would have won him an election.


(* Hard left, of course, meaning public ownership of essential services, taxing the rich and a working wage. Such extremism!!)

My grandparents (and several grand uncles and aunts) were reluctant Labour Party members from around the 1930s after both being in the communist party (like a lot of young working class people in the UK back at the start of the 20th century), they were reluctant because Labour were not left enough. Which was a constant refrain from my grandmother at each election I can remember her commenting on. She would have died laughing and crying that her constituency was one of the “red wall” constituencies that fell, her view was that you could put a red rosette on a pig and the town would vote for it.

Whatever the reason “hard left” (and no hard left does not mean what you define it to be - apart from taxing the rich the policies you mention have been policies of both the right and the left over the last 100 years or so) has consistently been rejected by the electorate at the election box.

 

[3point14]

My grandparents (and several grand uncles and aunts) were reluctant Labour Party members from around the 1930s after both being in the communist party (like a lot of young working class people in the UK back at the start of the 20th century), they were reluctant because Labour were not left enough. Which was a constant refrain from my grandmother at each election I can remember her commenting on. She would have died laughing and crying that her constituency was one of the “red wall” constituencies that fell, her view was that you could put a red rosette on a pig and the town would vote for it.

Whatever the reason “hard left” (and no hard left does not mean what you define it to be - apart from taxing the rich the policies you mention have been policies of both the right and the left over the last 100 years or so) has consistently been rejected by the electorate at the election box.

Corbyn got 40% of the vote in 2017. May got 42%

I'm curious what his "hard left" policies were that caused him to not be elected.?

And I don't think you can dismiss it with "whatever the reason..." when the reason is powerful vested interests working in conjuction with a right wing press and the right of his own party desperately working against him. The reasons are important. I don't think you can dismiss them so trivially.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Farage has cancelled his party leadership interview with the BBC.

It was set to take place this evening.

The party say his reason will be given later.

He hasn't ruled out giving interviews at future dates.

 

[sinnikal]

Corbyn got 40% of the vote in 2017. May got 42%

I'm curious what his "hard left" policies were that caused him to not be elected.?
...

It wasn't the policies that were rejected, it was Corbyn. In the 70's I used to hang with the same political circles as him.
He is not a leader that people could believe in. He was an excellent agitator but a crap organiser of any sort of coherent team.
The electorate at large just didn't like him personally - and that had little to do with the media slagging he got.
His young cabal worshipped him, other people not so much.

 

[3point14]

It wasn't the policies that were rejected, it was Corbyn. In the 70's I used to hang with the same political circles as him.
He is not a leader that people could believe in. He was an excellent agitator but a crap organiser of any sort of coherent team.
The electorate at large just didn't like him personally - and that had little to do with the media slagging he got.
His young cabal worshipped him, other people not so much.

The reporting of his character had nothing to do with the assessment of the man by those who were basing that assessment on nothing more that the reporting?

I am very skeptical of that. How did the electorate arrive at their conclusion if not by basing it on the reports they read and the very carefully chosen soundbites they were provided?

Boris hid in a fridge, for goodness sake. How was that reported? How would that have been reported if it had been Corbyn, not Johnson?

 

[jeremyp]

The reporting of his character had nothing to do with the assessment of the man by those who were basing that assessment on nothing more that the reporting?

I am very skeptical of that. How did the electorate arrive at their conclusion if not by basing it on the reports they read and the very carefully chosen soundbites they were provided?

Boris hid in a fridge, for goodness sake. How was that reported? How would that have been reported if it had been Corbyn, not Johnson?

Everybody knew that Corbin was rubbish. He had been the Labour Leader since 2015 and done nothing. The fact that Theresa May was able to hold a general election in 2017 despite her government being unable to work effectively on Brexit, tells us that Corbyn, in opposition, was AWOL.

The British press has always been fairly right wing: other Labour leaders have been able to get elected with it being that way.

 

[3point14]

Everybody knew that Corbin was rubbish. He had been the Labour Leader since 2015 and done nothing.

What would expect him to have done? Implement policies while not in power? That's tricky? Compete in a general election? Tricky to do that until one was actually called by the party in power.

The fact that Theresa May was able to hold a general election in 2017 despite her government being unable to work effectively on Brexit, tells us that Corbyn, in opposition, was AWOL.

Again, I refer you to the right wing press and his own party actively working against him.

The British press has always been fairly right wing: other Labour leaders have been able to get elected with it being that way.

Not really sure that's too relevant. Blair won with the fulsome support of that well know left wing rag, The Sun.

I struggle to see the lack of support for Corbyn and his policies when he achieved 40% of the popular vote in 2017 in spite of the many and varied forces working against him.

I'm also still wondering what his 'loony left' policies that caused him to be soundly rejected at the ballot box.

 

[Darat]

Corbyn got 40% of the vote in 2017. May got 42%

I'm curious what his "hard left" policies were that caused him to not be elected.?

And I don't think you can dismiss it with "whatever the reason..." when the reason is powerful vested interests working in conjuction with a right wing press and the right of his own party desperately working against him. The reasons are important. I don't think you can dismiss them so trivially.

I’m not dismissing them, but it’s the old argument of when asking for directions being told “Well I wouldn’t start from here”, yet we are where we are. And we’ve been here since the Labour Party came into existence - it’s always been and still is the “antiestablishment” party, as it was under the likes of Foot or Blair. And the different factions in all parties are often “party before country”, as I’ve mentioned my most political active period had me kicked out of the Labour Party - because of I was of the factions (labelled far left at the time) that didn’t agree with many of the policies of Kinnock’s times and internally and externally fought against them.

Plus of course if the “right wing” of the Labour Party is so powerful etc., how did Corbyn become leader and fought the election on their manifesto? The “far left” had a chance last time and it didn’t work, as has always happened for the Labour Party.

Internal party politics are often the most distasteful aspect of politics, but what can you expect when you have very opinionated politically active people who want to bend the nation to their vision?

In the end in the current election we are actually having you have the choice of a now far-right party or a left party. There is no other option, and if you find yourself on the left side of UK politics then your only choice is to vote for Labour - or tactically in some places and you should be encouraging as many people as possible to do the same. Complaining “but they aren’t real lefties” gains the left not a single additional vote and may give some an excuse to make an irrational decision and either not vote for Labour or tactically or even worse, not vote at all.

 

[Darat]

It wasn't the policies that were rejected, it was Corbyn. In the 70's I used to hang with the same political circles as him.
He is not a leader that people could believe in. He was an excellent agitator but a crap organiser of any sort of coherent team.
The electorate at large just didn't like him personally - and that had little to do with the media slagging he got.
His young cabal worshipped him, other people not so much.

I agree with much of this. We are seeing it again now with people saying “I can’t stand Starmer”, and he has zero personality!

 

[Darat]

Farage has cancelled his party leadership interview with the BBC.

It was set to take place this evening.

The party say his reason will be given later.

He hasn't ruled out giving interviews at future dates.

BBC bias of course!

He is so good at getting publicity, his interview would have been watched by a few nutters like me, by not doing the interview he gains so much more publicity.

 

[Darat]

What would expect him to have done? Implement policies while not in power? That's tricky? Compete in a general election? Tricky to do that until one was actually called by the party in power.



Again, I refer you to the right wing press and his own party actively working against him.




Not really sure that's too relevant. Blair won with the fulsome support of that well know left wing rag, The Sun.

I struggle to see the lack of support for Corbyn and his policies when he achieved 40% of the popular vote in 2017 in spite of the many and varied forces working against him.

I'm also still wondering what his 'loony left' policies that caused him to be soundly rejected at the ballot box.

Again with your “well I wouldn’t start from here”! The popular vote is not of key importance in UK GEs, winning constituencies is, again we may not like that, we may not want it to be true but it’s a fact.

 

[3point14]

I’m not dismissing them, but it’s the old argument of when asking for directions being told “Well I wouldn’t start from here”, yet we are where we are. And we’ve been here since the Labour Party came into existence - it’s always been and still is the “antiestablishment” party, as it was under the likes of Foot or Blair. And the different factions in all parties are often “party before country”, as I’ve mentioned my most political active period had me kicked out of the Labour Party - because of I was of the factions (labelled far left at the time) that didn’t agree with many of the policies of Kinnock’s times and internally and externally fought against them.

Plus of course if the “right wing” of the Labour Party is so powerful etc., how did Corbyn become leader and fought the election on their manifesto? The “far left” had a chance last time and it didn’t work, as has always happened for the Labour Party.

Internal party politics are often the most distasteful aspect of politics, but what can you expect when you have very opinionated politically active people who want to bend the nation to their vision?

In the end in the current election we are actually having you have the choice of a now far-right party or a left party. There is no other option, and if you find yourself on the left side of UK politics then your only choice is to vote for Labour - or tactically in some places and you should be encouraging as many people as possible to do the same. Complaining “but they aren’t real lefties” gains the left not a single additional vote and may give some an excuse to make an irrational decision and either not vote for Labour or tactically or even worse, not vote at all.

I'm not saying it gains votes. And I've already acknowledged where my vote is going.

 

[3point14]

Again with your “well I wouldn’t start from here”! The popular vote is not of key importance in UK GEs,

But it is important in refuting the 'everyone thinks Corbyn was unelectable concept that's so prevelant around here for some reason. It is important in refuting the 'nobody at all liked his policies' when 40% of the country liked them well enough to vote for the man.

winning constituencies is, again we may not like that, we may not want it to be true but it’s a fact.

I'm not disputing that.

But I would still like to hear of one of Starmer's left wing policies - any of them. And I'd still like to know which of Corbyn's policies you, and others, consider to be 'hard left'?

Starmer sits in the middle of the current political landscape, not to the left of it at all. These are the options we are provided. Anything or anyone that even hints at moving the window back to the left is vilified and their history rewritten.

to fail to acknowledge this is just going to mean the window shifts further right and, sooner or later, someone will tell me that the concept of progressive taxation is a 'loony left' idea and nobody likes it and we'll all suck it up because 80% of the UK fourth estate tell them it's so.

 

[Darat]

I never said I consider them "hard left" that's what others considered them.

If it was up to me income tax would increase (and do away with the pretence of NI being separate) for many people up to 90% at the top end. There would be wage caps for the likes of MDs, based on the average of their workers (not employees - workers) wages, shareholders and directors would be held directly responsible for their decisions or ownership, inheritance would be done away with, private education outlawed, private medical insurance done away with - would move the NHS to an insurance model and use the info from the better universal healthcare systems of other countries. All house building in the country for the next 5 years would be building new social housing i.e. council homes, right to buy repealed, increased rights for tenants of private homes. I could go on.

 

[3point14]

I never said I consider them "hard left" that's what others considered them.

I appreciate that. I think that just reinforces my point that Corbyn was screwed by a right wing press corps and not by himself.

If it was up to me income tax would increase (and do away with the pretence of NI being sperate) for many people up to 90% at the top end. There would be wage caps for the likes of MDs, based on the average of their workers (not employees - workers) wages, shareholders and directors would be held directly responsible for their decisions or ownership, inheritance would be done away with, private education outlawed. All house building in the country for the next 5 years would be building new social housing i.e. council homes, right to buy repealed, increased rights for tenants of private homes. I could go on.

I would absolutely vote for you.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Owen Jones's book "This Land" is an interesting book from the inside of the Corbyn campaign. No-one would accuse Jones of being a centrist or anti-Corbyn but he's refreshingly up front about what went wrong. Any Labour leader is going to fight an up hill battle against our hostile press, Corbyn doubly so because his history gave so much ammunition that could be used honestly or dishonestly against him. But Jones is honest enough to admit how much Corbyn damaged his own campaigns. It's really worth a read.

 

[Wudang]

Being right on a lot of issues and having good ideas is absolutely no sodding use unless you can get into a position that allows you to enact them. Labour members saw that over and over. Corbyn was useless as a leader and campaigner. Constructive ambiguity my arse.

 

[3point14]

Being right on a lot of issues and having good ideas is absolutely no sodding use unless you can get into a position that allows you to enact them. Labour members saw that over and over. Corbyn was useless as a leader and campaigner. Constructive ambiguity my arse.

That'll be why 40% of the votes cast were for him in 2017 then?

 

[Andy_Ross]

He lost, he's gone.

Get over it.

 

[wobs]

He lost, he's gone.

Get over it.

There are many that haven't, and one of my FB friends who is an active Labour supporter usually, is regularly posting about how bad Labour are, and people should vote for someone else. She supports Corbyn of course, and assumes the Tories are toast, enough that she actually discourages people to not vote Labour.