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U.S. Border and Immigration

Norman Alexander said:
No fantasy at all. Visa overstayers are indeed "illegal aliens" by proper definition of that term. By far the majority of these come through airports and are vetted by border security there. Most visa overstayers are not from Mexico, although more recently a greater proportion are. But as I wrote, most official "illegal aliens" in the USA have been already properly vetted by border security and permitted into the USA. They did not have to swim a river. They just overstayed their visa for whatever reason. It happens in lots of countries, by the way.

Perhaps you are miffed that the pejorative you "posted exactly" was actually wrong. As was your understanding of the term.
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I'm probably out of date, but...

... when I was working in the Commonwealth Public Service, back in the late nineties, we had a significant problem with 'illegal aliens' from the United States of America.

Exactly as you describe. They'd enter legally as tourists, and then overstay their visas.
(In some cases, intending to stay permanently.)
 
novaphile said:
I'm probably out of date, but...

... when I was working in the Commonwealth Public Service, back in the late nineties, we had a significant problem with 'illegal aliens' from the United States of America.

Exactly as you describe. They'd enter legally as tourists, and then overstay their visas.
(In some cases, intending to stay permanently.)
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Nowadays I gather it is mostly student visa holders and backpackers who overstay. Although according to our potato-head Opposition leader, it's a single starving, illiterate, six-year-old "terrorist" with no paperwork being smuggled into Australia on a refugee raft from Afghanistan. THIS LITTLE ABDUL WILL BRING DOWN OUR WAY OF LIFE!!!1!! Moron. :mad:

Even so, the USA has a great pile of laws on how they deal with visa violators. I gather these laws are quite clear and accessible. That includes tracking them down and expelling them. So whining about how actual "illegal aliens" are making the USA a bad place is just prejudice. If the USA doesn't want illegal aliens in the country, they should enact their own laws rigorously enough (no matter what we outsiders think of them). If they don't, whose problem is that!
 
malbui said:
On the border control front, in France the customs agencies are entitled to spot check within a 40 kilometre perimeter of land borders. This has been interpreted to also mean within 40 kilometres of airports receiving international flights, leading to the strange phenomenon of seeing occasional - and clearly targeted - checkpoints not far from Lyon.
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In the US, CBP can conduct warrantless searches within 100 miles of "external boundaries", which defines a region where nearly two-thirds of Americans live.
 
Norman Alexander said:
No fantasy at all. Visa overstayers are indeed "illegal aliens" by proper definition of that term. By far the majority of these come through airports and are vetted by border security there. Most visa overstayers are not from Mexico, although more recently a greater proportion are. But as I wrote, most official "illegal aliens" in the USA have been already properly vetted by border security and permitted into the USA. They did not have to swim a river. They just overstayed their visa for whatever reason. It happens in lots of countries, by the way.

Perhaps you are miffed that the pejorative you "posted exactly" was actually wrong. As was your understanding of the term.
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Why do you imagine that nobody cares about illegal overstays? Most of us do, but we also recognize that there's a difference between a) someone who enters the country legally and doesn't leave when they're supposed to and b) someone who enters the country illegally. In the former case, there's a record of them coming in, at minimum a cursory background check has been done, and they've met the criteria for a tourist/travel/work visa. In the latter case, none of that is known.

It's possible to end up with someone in your house who isn't supposed to be there, and who you want gone. That's a generally true statement. On the other hand, it doesn't mean that there's no difference between a visiting friend who didn't leave when they said they were and now you're miffed that they're still here, versus a complete stranger who broke into your house without your permission in the first place.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Why do you imagine that nobody cares about illegal overstays? Most of us do, but we also recognize that there's a difference between a) someone who enters the country legally and doesn't leave when they're supposed to and b) someone who enters the country illegally. In the former case, there's a record of them coming in, at minimum a cursory background check has been done, and they've met the criteria for a tourist/travel/work visa. In the latter case, none of that is known.

It's possible to end up with someone in your house who isn't supposed to be there, and who you want gone. That's a generally true statement. On the other hand, it doesn't mean that there's no difference between a visiting friend who didn't leave when they said they were and now you're miffed that they're still here, versus a complete stranger who broke into your house without your permission in the first place.
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Ok let go with your analogy.

In both cases they are "illegal immigrants". As far as I know for the USA, they are in violation of the same laws - being in the USA without permission, I.e. illegally.

The few people who break and enter your house tend very much to want to stay hidden out of sight. They are living quietly in a corner of your attic or basement. They don't want to go, so will be unobtrusive as possible. They won't be rummaging in your pantry.

Meanwhile, your many friends-who-won't-leave also have discovered they like your house, and have decided to stay longer. But they don't want to spoil a good thing either. So they too will go hide in your attic, keeping out of sight. Or pretend they were here all along until you accept them as one of the family.

But here's an added twist. Someone in your family realises they can make money out of this. So they are renting the attic spaces to these ghost residents and exploiting them as housekeepers, even bringing more of them in to make more money. Your family knows they are doing it but they also like the added income more. Since the ghost dwellers are actually not being pests, they let it keep happening.

So what's the biggest problem here? That you have unwanted residents at all? Short of hermetically sealing your house and never having visitors a la North Korea, you will always have potential hidden attic dwellers of both types. But by far the majority will be friends who outstay their welcome. What you do about them is up to you.
 
Norman Alexander said:
Ok let go with your analogy.

In both cases they are "illegal immigrants". As far as I know for the USA, they are in violation of the same laws - being in the USA without permission, I.e. illegally.

The few people who break and enter your house tend very much to want to stay hidden out of sight. They are living quietly in a corner of your attic or basement. They don't want to go, so will be unobtrusive as possible. They won't be rummaging in your pantry.

Meanwhile, your many friends-who-won't-leave also have discovered they like your house, and have decided to stay longer. But they don't want to spoil a good thing either. So they too will go hide in your attic, keeping out of sight. Or pretend they were here all along until you accept them as one of the family.

But here's an added twist. Someone in your family realises they can make money out of this. So they are renting the attic spaces to these ghost residents and exploiting them as housekeepers, even bringing more of them in to make more money. Your family knows they are doing it but they also like the added income more. Since the ghost dwellers are actually not being pests, they let it keep happening.

So what's the biggest problem here? That you have unwanted residents at all? Short of hermetically sealing your house and never having visitors a la North Korea, you will always have potential hidden attic dwellers of both types. But by far the majority will be friends who outstay their welcome. What you do about them is up to you.
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This seems like a weird response to me. There are material differences between the two groups, those who enter legally and overstay their visa and those who enter illegally. It's an empirical question what the effects of each of those groups are on the country as a whole. It seems entirely reasonable to look at those two groups separately and because of their differences to be more concerned about one than the other.

Of course, it could turn out empirically that the differences are very small, or that the visa overstayers are actually worse on the metrics you care about than those who entered without visas. As I said, it's an empirical question.

My own view, informed by both economic theory and empirical data, is that both groups are net positive, but that doesn't change the fact that it's reasonable to differentiate them and consider them separately.
 
Roboramma said:
This seems like a weird response to me. There are material differences between the two groups, those who enter legally and overstay their visa and those who enter illegally. It's an empirical question what the effects of each of those groups are on the country as a whole. It seems entirely reasonable to look at those two groups separately and because of their differences to be more concerned about one than the other.

Of course, it could turn out empirically that the differences are very small, or that the visa overstayers are actually worse on the metrics you care about than those who entered without visas. As I said, it's an empirical question.

My own view, informed by both economic theory and empirical data, is that both groups are net positive, but that doesn't change the fact that it's reasonable to differentiate them and consider them separately.
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Technically, both groups are the same "illegals". People who overstay their visas are foreigners who have no valid visa to be in your country. People who came in via coyotes are foreigners who have no valid visa to be in your country. The only difference is how they got to be in your country. The majority got vetted and let in. The others snuck in. But they are all in the same boat now according to your laws.

How you view people with no valid visa to be in your country is up to you. Also what your law does for them. This is interesting reading.
 
Norman Alexander said:
Technically, both groups are the same "illegals". People who overstay their visas are foreigners who have no valid visa to be in your country. People who came in via coyotes are foreigners who have no valid visa to be in your country. The only difference is how they got to be in your country. The majority got vetted and let in. The others snuck in. But they are all in the same boat now according to your laws.

How you view people with no valid visa to be in your country is up to you. Also what your law does for them. This is interesting reading.
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The difference between these two groups is well defined, it's possible to measure average differences between them on metrics that we care about, and its even possible to design policies that treat them differently. The fact that they are both "illegal" doesn't change any of that. It could plausibly turn out that the differences aren't large enough to justify any differences in policy but that's an empirical question that you can't dismiss by "technically both groups are the same".

Not important, but it's not my country. I'm a Canadian living in China.
 
Roboramma said:
The difference between these two groups is well defined, it's possible to measure average differences between them on metrics that we care about, and its even possible to design policies that treat them differently. The fact that they are both "illegal" doesn't change any of that. It could plausibly turn out that the differences aren't large enough to justify any differences in policy but that's an empirical question that you can't dismiss by "technically both groups are the same".
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Of course you can distinguish between them! But the only difference is how they arrived in the country, not their visa status (which is "none" for both).

Not important, but it's not my country. I'm a Canadian living in China.
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Me neither. Australian here. But we have our own stupid visa rules here, including some really draconian and unequal policies based in exactly how and where refugee asylum seekers arrive here.

Our "boat people" refugee arrivals, roughly equivalent to coyote illegals in the USA, get the concentration-camp treatment and no visa assistance for years. Until recently, this incarceration involved third countries.

Meanwhile, refugees who fly in with no passport or visa and seek asylum on arrival are 95% of the count, yet they get temporary visas and funded accommodation here in Australia.

This is reprehensible. Don't be like us.
 
Eduardo Sarabia, a suspected serial rapist and illegal alien, has been arrested after law enforcement caught him in the act of raping a woman in a van that was outfitted as a "rape dungeon on wheels."

A 26-year-old woman was also allegedly found inside the van, which deputies described as a "rape dungeon on wheels" and "disgustingly outfitted for rape." Through their investigations, deputies discovered that Sarabia had allegedly sexually assaulted another woman in the same van parked at about the same spot just 24 hours earlier.
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And

The "outfitted" van and other evidence have convinced investigators that Sarabia likely assaulted other women as well. "Based on the nature of the allegations, detectives believe there may be additional unidentified victims," said a bulletin about Sarabia's arrest from the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office.
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The real victims here are the businesses who lost another potential employee to do jobs Americans won't do for low wages.


Link
 
Bogative said:
Eduardo Sarabia, a suspected serial rapist and illegal alien, has been arrested after law enforcement caught him in the act of raping a woman in a van that was outfitted as a "rape dungeon on wheels."

Link
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The link is to a story on The Blaze website.
Overall, we rate The Blaze strongly Right Biased and Questionable based on the promotion of conspiracy theories and numerous failed fact checks.
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https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-blaze/
 
Norman Alexander said:
I think you were being asked what your response would be.
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I'm calling the cops regardless. If they can provide a really, incredibly good and compelling reason why they absolutely had no other choice than to break into my house in order to avoid imminent and immediate death... I *might* decide not to press charges after they've been arrested and removed from my property.

There is no situation in which I would just allow a complete stranger who entered my home unlawfully and illegally to stay in my guest room indefinitely.
 
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