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Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire III

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Could be, but I have tried to focus only on her most basic claims and settle what they are without getting too distracted by the many other claims she makes.

Either she hasn't good evidence that the initial vehicle was a hybrid or EV, in which case this is all much ado about nothing and all the claims about the prime minister just don't matter, or she has good evidence that the initial vehicle was a hybrid or EV, in which case the press release of March 21 has an obvious and relevant falsehood.

She wants the prime minister-initiated coverup without actually claiming that the fire officials have deceived the public. Which, you know, is the heart of her alleged coverup.

The video looks very much like a thermal runaway and not a plastic tank explosion (it was at the front, not the back) but I am willing to listen to an explanation in the report when it comes out. If it fails to mention anything about the vehicle, as in the Liverpool Echo report then we'll know they just want it glossed over.

As for the Prime Minister, I am shocked, SHOCKED, at the idea that he or his family could have anything whatsoever to do with Tata JLR investments in their tax havens and blind registers. SHOCKED!!! The idea is definitely cloud cuckoo land.
 
Look, I get that there is fun to be had by making derogatory comments because you think it makes you look better so I let it go because IMV your jeers and sneers reflect on you, not me.
Generous of you to let it go without making comments such as that quoted immediately above.

There is fun to be had in watching someone contort themselves in a months-long silly dance to distract her own attention from this fact:
The vehicle involved was diesel-powered – it was not a mild hybrid, plug-in hybrid or electric vehicle.​

However, don't spread factual lies. I never said I only had one job nor that I had no experience of regulatory frameworks. Professional chartered accountancy is full of freaking regulatory frameworks. Just so you know, we chased bad guys all over the globe, money launderers, dodgy directors, organized crime, carousel fraud, literally refunded hundreds of millions of pounds of dirty money back to the UK taxpayer.


Good for you.

Because you have told so many lies, including a great many assertions of your personal expertise and experience, most of which were immediately belied by literally incredible claims that would never have been made by someone who actually possessed the claimed expertise and experience, you will have to forgive us for being a bit skeptical about the "hundreds of millions of pounds" you have saved UK taxpayers.

If you do not understand why such skepticism is warranted, you should acquaint yourself with Aesop's fable about the boy who cried wolf.
A bored Boy tending Sheep cried “Wolf!” to get attention. He did it again and people came. A third time and the Boy was ignored. Goodbye flock.

A liar will not be believed, even when telling the truth.
​
 
The video looks very much like a thermal runaway
It looks like a fire to me.
and not a plastic tank explosion
Nobody says it shows a plastic tank explosion, so that doesn't appear to be a useful observation.

... I am willing to listen to an explanation in the report when it comes out. If it fails to mention anything about the vehicle, as in the Liverpool Echo report then we'll know they just want it glossed over.
Wait. What are you claiming about the Liverpool Echo?

As for the Prime Minister, I am shocked, SHOCKED, at the idea that he or his family could have anything whatsoever to do with Tata JLR investments in their tax havens and blind registers. SHOCKED!!! The idea is definitely cloud cuckoo land.
Tell us a little about what you imagine these "blind register" things are, please.
 
You know, one big problem with this conversation is that Vixen can't decide what she actually is alleging.

This is a common problem with conspiracy theories. They don't offer a credible alternative to the prevailing narrative because they can't do so without establishing criteria for credibility or acknowledging existing criteria. Conspiracy rhetoric relies on dismissing the prevailing narrative by one standard of proof, then proffering the conspiracy theory under a much less stringent standard of proof. The operative reality is that the conspiracy theory wouldn't fare any better (and usually far worse) under the standard of proof used to reject the conventional narrative.

The rejection doctrine says, "This is the standard of proof any hypothesis must meet in order to be considered credible. If the prevailing hypothesis cannot meet it, it must be rejected." That's where you get proposals like requiring the make, model, and owner of a car to be published or else there's something suspicious. Vixen wants to argue that the emerging conventional narrative has failed to meet a universal standard of proof. As with most other conspiracy theories, her criteria here for that standard is largely just stuff she makes up. The goal is to reject the mainstream narrative by any ad hoc means, all the while posturing it as impartial and extrinsic. That's the first step of a conspiracy argument.

The second step is to show that various conspiracies are "possible" or "cannot be ruled out," suggesting a much lower standard of proof relying mostly on estimates of prima facie plausibility and innuendo, not evidence. The various claims do not converge or become consistent, and are excused from doing so under the posture that each is merely one of several possibilities; the conspiracy theorist doesn't much care which of them might prevail, so long as the conventional narrative is rejected.

The goal, of course, is to show how clever the conspiracy theorist is in rooting out nefarious motives or machinations in the conventional narrative, and in finding paltry outlying evidence that individually favors one or more conspiracy theories irrespective of contradiction. It's to show that the obvious line through the evidence is not obvious if you're as smart as the conspiracy theorist, and that so many other lines can be drawn if you focus on outliers and supposition.

While the conspiracy theory often has a broad, sweeping scope, it rarely stays consistent. The conspiracy theorist wants the reader to focus at the high level and look for desirable coherence in the narrative itself, not to look for coherence or consilience in evidence for the narrative. Calls for consistency are met with the Conan-Doylish advice that if you have properly rejected the "impossible" (by one contrived standard of proof) then you have to be open to alternatives, no matter how preposterous, contradictory, or half-baked.

If, in the second step, the narrative and its evidence are subjected to the same standard of proof by which the conventional narrative was rejected, the conspiracy narrative inevitably fares far worse. But the reader is supposed to have forgotten that Step One featured the premise that a certain standard of proof is required of all hypotheses that want to be credible. The double standard is the hallmark of all conspiracy theories.

Real investigation can certainly change narratives if the evidence suggests. But no two-step process is indicated. Instead, the prevailing narrative and the incoming narrative are weighed together according to the same standard of proof, and the most parsimonious entry wins. Parsimony is not a virtue of conspiracy theorists, but it is a virtue of actual investigation.
 
Come on Vixen, quote people making the claim you're attributing to them or admit you made it up.

I've made a request Vixen, you've replied to never posts than mine.

Why are you refusing to back up your accusaions? Is it because you know you were lying?
 
Look, I get that there is fun to be had by making derogatory comments because you think it makes you look better so I let it go...

Don't. If you're accusing me of making personal attacks, have the fortitude to report it and allow a third party to adjudicate your accusation. As it stands, you're just making it for rhetorical effect. That is dishonest and cowardly, and will remain so until you remedy it.

However, don't spread factual lies. I never said I only had one job nor that I had no experience of regulatory frameworks.

That was not my claim. My claim is that it has been shown that you can demonstrate no correct understanding of them, not that you claimed not to understand them. I made no statement regarding how many jobs you have held. But I can now credibly accuse you of factual misrepresentation. You seem to have great difficulty accurately representing the statements of your critics, sources, and other authorities. Fix it, and quit whining childishly about how badly you think you're being treated.

Professional chartered accountancy is full of freaking regulatory frameworks.

That is a true statement. However, since you cannot demonstrate a correct understanding of how regulatory frameworks work, your earlier insinuation to be well versed in them from a position of claimed expertise in accountancy does not rehabilitate the broken foundation of your argument. There is no reason to accept your say-so anyway on these matters based on some prior claim to proficiency when we are faced with abject demonstrations of your incompetence.

Just so you know, we chased bad guys all over the globe, money launderers, dodgy directors, organized crime, carousel fraud, literally refunded hundreds of millions of pounds of dirty money back to the UK taxpayer.

You've shown no evidence of any proficiency in doing any such thing, even if it were relevant to any of your conspiracy theories. You have, in contrast, provided ample evidence of poor investigational skills and a poor appreciation for others who can demonstrate proficiency. Claiming otherwise will no longer avail you. I don't respect any of your claims, insinuations, or tacit representations of expertise when I have evidence in hand that contradicts them.

Therefore I do not entertain any argument from you that requires us to accept premises supported only by your personal authority.
 
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The video looks very much like a thermal runaway and not a plastic tank explosion (it was at the front, not the back) but I am willing to listen to an explanation in the report when it comes out. If it fails to mention anything about the vehicle, as in the Liverpool Echo report then we'll know they just want it glossed over.

No one said that it looks like a plastic tank explosion. The most common reasons for car fires are mechanical failure from poor maintenance, crashes (which we can discount), electrical problems, leaking fluids, leaking fuel systems and overheated engines. All of these can be at the front of the vehicle.
 
Hardly a conspiracy. The negligence of the Buckingham Group builders is absolutely glaring.

By what standard? Why were they not held accountable when the final inspection of the building occurred, which is the customary time to raise such issues? Why was the building accepted by its owners if the builders were cognizably negligent?
 
Because you have told so many lies, including a great many assertions of your personal expertise and experience, most of which were immediately belied by literally incredible claims that would never have been made by someone who actually possessed the claimed expertise and experience, you will have to forgive us for being a bit skeptical about the "hundreds of millions of pounds" you have saved UK taxpayers.

All that could be heard was the thump-thump-thump as wad after wad of banknotes hit the desk, and the constant whirring of Vixen's adding machine, "ta-pocketa-pocketa-pocketa."
 
Hardly a conspiracy. The negligence of the Buckingham Group builders is absolutely glaring.


Not what the post you were replying to was about, if you had bothered to read it properly. You have been implying a conspiracy to cover it up.
 
The video looks very much like a thermal runaway and not a plastic tank explosion (it was at the front, not the back) but I am willing to listen to an explanation in the report when it comes out. If it fails to mention anything about the vehicle, as in the Liverpool Echo report then we'll know they just want it glossed over.

The question is whether the evidence you have seen, including the video, is strong enough to conclude that the initial vehicle was (at least most likely) an EV or hybrid. If yes, then you also have reason to conclude that the press release of March 21 (at least most likely) includes at least one false statement and deliberately so. If not, then you have no evidence of a coverup of any sort.

I think waiting for the final report is a fine idea. It is an admission that the evidence you have one way or the other is too weak to draw a confident conclusion, but there's no shame in that. Of course, it also means giving up on any claims of conspiracy until the final report comes out.

So, let's do wait and see, shall we?[1]

As for the Prime Minister, I am shocked, SHOCKED, at the idea that he or his family could have anything whatsoever to do with Tata JLR investments in their tax havens and blind registers. SHOCKED!!! The idea is definitely cloud cuckoo land.

This has nothing to do with what I said. If we have no good reason now to believe that the vehicle was an EV or hybrid, then there's no reason to believe that the BF&RS is engaged in a coverup at the behest of the Prime Minister. You are getting things backwards.

[1] Prediction: When the final report comes out, Vixen will suddenly realize that the evidence she's had at hand has been stronger than she realized and that this report is clearly a coverup -- no matter whether it identifies the make and model or not.
 
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This is a common problem with conspiracy theories. They don't offer a credible alternative to the prevailing narrative because they can't do so without establishing criteria for credibility or acknowledging existing criteria.[...]

Very well analyzed, Jay.
 
BTW: I couldn't find the 'Where there's muck there's brass' quote in my Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase & Fable (15th Ed). What is it under, or what page...?


Well, that's what you get if you rely on outdated sources. The current edition is the 20th.
 
You know, one big problem with this conversation is that Vixen can't decide what she actually is alleging. She sometimes says that the evidence points to a fire involving a lithium battery, but when you press her, she says that she doesn't have good evidence for this conclusion.

She also says that there is a coverup involved, but any coverup requires that the vehicle is actually a hybrid or EV, which is inconsistent with her reluctance to confirm that this is the case.

This is also at the heart of her obvious contradictions regarding the March 21 press release. She doesn't want to say that there is a false statement in the press release (where it says the car is NOT a hybrid or EV), because she doesn't want to commit to accusing the fire officials of lying, yet she regularly claims that the evidence indicates that the initial vehicle had a lithium battery.

This also explains her reluctance to answer my questions in a clear and concise manner, consistent with her previous claims. She is very reluctant to admit that her theories entail that the March 21 press release contains a falsehood (and clearly a deliberate one).

This conversation would go a lot easier if Vixen simply had the courage of her convictions.

Pigs_will_fly.jpg
 
Look, I get that there is fun to be had by making derogatory comments because you think it makes you look better so I let it go because IMV your jeers and sneers reflect on you, not me. However, don't spread factual lies. I never said I only had one job nor that I had no experience of regulatory frameworks. Professional chartered accountancy is full of freaking regulatory frameworks. Just so you know, we chased bad guys all over the globe, money launderers, dodgy directors, organized crime, carousel fraud, literally refunded hundreds of millions of pounds of dirty money back to the UK taxpayer.

No. JayUtah is not making derogatory comments....

"We have shown that you do not understand how to read laws and how they are applied.

We have shown that you not understand how regulations and regulatory frameworks operate.

We have shown that you do not understand how industry recommendations apply to regulatory bodies.

We have shown that you do not understand the reports of investigating bodies.

We have shown that you do not understand what constitutes legally cognizable evidence, or even competent evidence.

We have shown that your knowledge of financial structures and obligations is deficient
​

He is calling out your false claims of expertise.

He is pointing out the obvious fact that you do NOT have the necessary expertise or qualifications that you claim to have.
 
He is calling out your false claims of expertise.

Whereupon Vixen points out that she makes no claims of expertise, aside from lately repeating the insinuation that accountancy requires knowledge of regulation.

I wrote previously at length about how most statements she makes are upon her own authority, either to allege fact or to offer opinion or interpretation of facts made by others. These all include the tacit premise that she has an appropriate foundation of knowledge and expertise to make the statement. That she does not acknowledge or defend that premise does not mean it isn't a part of the argument or that it has somehow been satisfied and Vixen's claims have appropriate foundation. Naturally Vixen did not respond in any way to that logical analysis.

Most of my responses to Vixen over the past, say, ten pages or so have been to extract the tacit premise from her argument du jour and ask her to support it. These responses take the forms, "Because you say so?" "According to whose judgment?" and the facetious references to "Vixensplaining." Naturally Vixen does not acknowledge or answer those posts either.

The equivocation between suggesting that statements require no expertise or that the conspiracy theorist has the appropriate expertise (nay, often much more so than any of her critics) is, I believe, on our Bingo card. Her assiduous question-begging is related to the denial of foundation.
 
This is a common problem with conspiracy theories. They don't offer a credible alternative to the prevailing narrative because they can't do so without establishing criteria for credibility or acknowledging existing criteria. Conspiracy rhetoric relies on dismissing the prevailing narrative by one standard of proof, then proffering the conspiracy theory under a much less stringent standard of proof. The operative reality is that the conspiracy theory wouldn't fare any better (and usually far worse) under the standard of proof used to reject the conventional narrative.

The rejection doctrine says, "This is the standard of proof any hypothesis must meet in order to be considered credible. If the prevailing hypothesis cannot meet it, it must be rejected." That's where you get proposals like requiring the make, model, and owner of a car to be published or else there's something suspicious. Vixen wants to argue that the emerging conventional narrative has failed to meet a universal standard of proof. As with most other conspiracy theories, her criteria here for that standard is largely just stuff she makes up. The goal is to reject the mainstream narrative by any ad hoc means, all the while posturing it as impartial and extrinsic. That's the first step of a conspiracy argument.

The second step is to show that various conspiracies are "possible" or "cannot be ruled out," suggesting a much lower standard of proof relying mostly on estimates of prima facie plausibility and innuendo, not evidence. The various claims do not converge or become consistent, and are excused from doing so under the posture that each is merely one of several possibilities; the conspiracy theorist doesn't much care which of them might prevail, so long as the conventional narrative is rejected.

The goal, of course, is to show how clever the conspiracy theorist is in rooting out nefarious motives or machinations in the conventional narrative, and in finding paltry outlying evidence that individually favors one or more conspiracy theories irrespective of contradiction. It's to show that the obvious line through the evidence is not obvious if you're as smart as the conspiracy theorist, and that so many other lines can be drawn if you focus on outliers and supposition.

While the conspiracy theory often has a broad, sweeping scope, it rarely stays consistent. The conspiracy theorist wants the reader to focus at the high level and look for desirable coherence in the narrative itself, not to look for coherence or consilience in evidence for the narrative. Calls for consistency are met with the Conan-Doylish advice that if you have properly rejected the "impossible" (by one contrived standard of proof) then you have to be open to alternatives, no matter how preposterous, contradictory, or half-baked.

If, in the second step, the narrative and its evidence are subjected to the same standard of proof by which the conventional narrative was rejected, the conspiracy narrative inevitably fares far worse. But the reader is supposed to have forgotten that Step One featured the premise that a certain standard of proof is required of all hypotheses that want to be credible. The double standard is the hallmark of all conspiracy theories.

Real investigation can certainly change narratives if the evidence suggests. But no two-step process is indicated. Instead, the prevailing narrative and the incoming narrative are weighed together according to the same standard of proof, and the most parsimonious entry wins. Parsimony is not a virtue of conspiracy theorists, but it is a virtue of actual investigation.

I have just started a thread about an article by George Monbiot about his meeting a conspiracy theorist (he prefers conspiracy fantasist, as he points out that there are well documented conspiracies)

 
The video looks very much like a thermal runaway and not a plastic tank explosion (it was at the front, not the back) but I am willing to listen to an explanation in the report when it comes out. If it fails to mention anything about the vehicle, as in the Liverpool Echo report then we'll know they just want it glossed over.

As for the Prime Minister, I am shocked, SHOCKED, at the idea that he or his family could have anything whatsoever to do with Tata JLR investments in their tax havens and blind registers. SHOCKED!!! The idea is definitely cloud cuckoo land.

Vixen shows that as usual she has no idea about modern commonrail diesels...
They have an electric fuel pump in or near the fuel tank, which sends diesel through a high pressure fuel line from the back (tank) to the front (engine)- should this line be punctured for any reason it will sent a spray of atomised diesel shooting out- which is VERY easy to ignite and you get an instant 'flamethrower' of fire coming from the leak indeed there are some very impressive diesel flamethrowers available for sale... eg big-boy-flamethrower - available in the US, perfect for 'home defence' lol)
So a punctured fuel line (which runs right under the seats btw underneath the vehicle) explains the 'jet of flame' from a diesel car quite readily - far more so than this convoluted conspiracy theory of 'disguised EVs' and multiple coverups
A small pinhole leak would explain it readily...
Screenshot-from-2024-05-09-13-32-59.png
 
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There's also a fuel return line back to the tank.
My last works van also had a fuel cooler in the return line, It got knocked off going over a speed ramp which was fun.
 
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