Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire III

[phiwum]

Except she's in the weird position that she doesn't want to say that BF&R is lying, so it's hard to say that they're lying because Sunak told them to.

I don't really know why she wants to avoid the word "lie". It leads to ridiculous claims that

• The initial vehicle was an EV or a hybrid.
• The statement "The vehicle involved was diesel-powered – it was not a mild hybrid, plug-in hybrid or electric vehicle," announced by the fire department, is not a lie.

I see now that the weird position is even stranger. Vixen has now claimed the following.

• The initial vehicle was an EV or a hybrid.
• Vixen does not know whether the statement "The vehicle involved was diesel-powered – it was not a mild hybrid, plug-in hybrid or electric vehicle," is true or false.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

According to Brewer it possibly originated with using manure to grow crops, and then later came to mean that there's money to be made in unpleasant trades or by hard work. There's no indication anywhere that it has ever had the connotations that you twisted it into as a result of getting it backwards.

At the time the phrase originated literal 'muck', horse dung from the streets and human 'nightsoil' were collected and sold for manure to farms and dog faeces was used in the tanning process in large quantities so was also valuable. On top of that there would be items such as coins, buttons, lost jewellery occasionally mixed in, cloth (which was used in papermaking) and bones which would be broken down to make bone meal for animal feed, any scrap metal could also be claimed and recycled. The phrase was expanded to mean any dirty, unpleasant work, but originally the 'muck' was meant quite seriously.

There was a very interesting series "24 Hours in the Past" that covered this quite comprehensively in it's first episode.

 

[JayUtah]

The NFPA most assuredly has branches in countries other than the USA. And their comprehensive fire codes are referenced, either directly or through interconnected organizations such as UL (Underwriter's Laboratories) ANSI, etc. as requirements of the building codes in many countries. So, their name not withstanding, they really are internationally recognized. As a Canadian who worked extensively with building codes for over 40 years I frequently was required to design to NFPA standards as referenced in Canadian building codes.

Indeed, this is usually the way actual obligatory codes arise. ANSI, ISO, IEC, IEEE, and other alphabet soups rarely just go off on their own and make up codes irrespective of industry input. I'm quite active, for example, in helping to formulate advisory standards for the industries in which I participate. These are then sometimes adopted by regulatory agencies along with other recommendations from my industry. Regardless of the notoriety of an advisory board, authority to regulate comes only from governmental and treaty organizations.

 

[catsmate]

Related digression: I have devices that take 2016, 2025, 2032, 1616 and 1632 batteries. Just a tiny bit of standardisation would be great.

2016, 1616 and some foil.

 

[zooterkin]

They are an advisory body, one of several in this field and one of many worldwide on many subjects. They stand both in contrast to and alongside ad hoc investigative bodies. The regulatory agencies of individual countries or trade groups may look to their recommendations as model codes. Any regulatory or compliance issue is adjudicated by the regulatory agency in the appropriate jurisdiction, not by the advisory body.

Fair enough. I certainly wasn't going to take Vixen's word for it.

 

[JayUtah]

...through interconnected organizations such as UL (Underwriter's Laboratories) ANSI, etc.

This is illustrative in that UL and ASTM are considered competing advisory bodies. ASTM too was once strictly American but has now been endorsed worlwide. ANSI is often superseded by ISO, and overlaps both UL and ASTM to some extent.

It's usually appropriate for engineering and construction organizations to voluntarily adopt a standards-based approach to design (even privately-originated standards from these advisory bodies) because it limits their liability. And it is often convenient for national and international regulatory bodies to voluntarily adopt them (or portions of them). But the authority for any alleged code violation must look to the code, not to standards bodies that regulatory agencies consult.

 

[Steve]

Sorry, I'm having trouble spotting it; could you highlight the references to the NFPA in the Liverpool report?

Vixen's first link is to a report that was actually prepared by NFPA.

 

[catsmate]

Back to the topic. Did you have time to look at the video I supplied you with yet? What does location 1:04 remind you of?



https://youtu.be/M9Cl6_Y2rXU?si=kz5BJhVVYmfq5fj6

Be honest about what you see.

Irrelevant nonsense, the initial vehicle in the fire was a diesel ICE.

 

[JayUtah]

Vixen's first link is to a report that was actually prepared by NFPA.

If it's the one specifically addressing EVs, it's not especially relevant. NFPA's interest in that report is in calculating electrical load requirements for charging stations, and noting that the relevant regulations are to be found in the NEC. It does not discuss fires arising from thermal runaway in lithium ion batteries. It appears limited to discussing service load calculations so as to avoid fires from electrical overloading at or near charging stations.

 

[Vixen]

You think coins weren't common by the 16th century, which is when the phrase "where there's muck there's brass" originated? Neither muck nor brass are being used as verbs in the phrase; both are being used as nouns.

It's on page 1473 of the 20th Edition of Brewer's Phrase and Fable, if you want to check that you originally wrote the phrase incorrectly. You don't seem to understand its meaning; it's not about corruption, it's about wealth coming from hard dirty work. ETA to be clear, dirty meaning soil, coal, waste etc, not dirty in the sense of illegal.

Where did I say it was about corruption?

My Oxford English attributes it to someone called J. Ray who used it in 1678 English proverbs as 'muck and money go together', which is similar to my sense.

Your sense, as quoted above, turns it into a positive saying whereas my sense was clearly intended as negative one and nothing to do with 'hard work'. Not something I would associate with someone who married a billionaire.

 

[jimbob]

Exactly. Smart Cooky was gilding the lily.

And he is furious that I spotted what he did.

Is this some type of performance art?


May I suggest that every time you think about using a well known phrase, you ask about it in chatgpt, as I suspect a large language model might have more insight and possibly genuine understanding.

 

[catsmate]

Poor show. The practice of shouting, 'You lie!' or 'Conspiracy theory!' shows a deplorable and sadly lacking ability to debate.

It's all the response your drivel requires, or deserves.

 

[Vixen]

The NFPA most assuredly has branches in countries other than the USA. And their comprehensive fire codes are referenced, either directly or through interconnected organizations such as UL (Underwriter's Laboratories) ANSI, etc. as requirements of the building codes in many countries. So, their name not withstanding, they really are internationally recognized. As a Canadian who worked extensively with building codes for over 40 years I frequently was required to design to NFPA standards as referenced in Canadian building codes.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[catsmate]

Yes, I am sure that someone of Gen Z would look up Merriam-Webster and come to that view. Others, such as myself, are aware it goes back way before the industrial revolution and did NOT originally mean, to drag oneself out of bed to earn a livelihood at the office, or down at t'mill.

I'm not of "Generation Z". I'm older, wiser, far more intelligent and vastly better educated than you.

And, regarding this specific example, you are, of course, completely wrong. Try a reliable source, such as the OED, rather than spouting pathetic lies in an attempt to seem more erudite.

 

[zooterkin]

Vixen's first link is to a report that was actually prepared by NFPA.

It looks more like a newsletter article to me, and there's only a passing reference to the Liverpool fire. Almost as if someone just googled for the Liverpool fire and pasted the first reference they found to it.

 

[Mojo]

Where did I say it was about corruption?

Here:

There is a Yorkshire homily which states, 'Where there's brass there's muck'.

There is brass - big brass - involved here.

Follow the money.

Then you will understand why the press are gagged from reporting the fire to have started in (1) a thermal runaway lithium battery fire and (2) that the vehicle is a Jaguar Land Rover vehicle.


As youtuber Bald and Bankrupt might put it: 'Check it out!'

 

[catsmate]

Yes, it is actually an international body, although based in the USA.

It's a voluntary industry body. Actual UK fire standards are determined by the BSI, in conjunction with the FSB/NFCC and the FIA.

 

[Agatha]

Where did I say it was about corruption?

My Oxford English attributes it to someone called J. Ray who used it in 1678 English proverbs as 'muck and money go together', which is similar to my sense.

Your sense, as quoted above, turns it into a positive saying whereas my sense was clearly intended as negative one and nothing to do with 'hard work'. Not something I would associate with someone who married a billionaire.

See Mojo's post.

It is a positive saying. If you intended a negative meaning you should perhaps have chosen a different aphorism.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Here:

See Mojo's post.

It is a positive saying. If you intended a negative meaning you should perhaps have chosen a different aphorism.

I suspect someone was reaching for "Behind every great fortune lies a great crime" (Balzac)
but came up a bit short.

 

[catsmate]

Why are you trying to silence Vixen?

"It’s a scholar’s duty to provide instruction and direction".