Cont: Musk buys Twitter II

That's disappointing. I was hoping for something more substantial.

*shrug*

I wouldn't call that 'rather serious problems'.

This part would be closer to what was actually referred to -

Two of the users the platform suspended Tuesday told NBC News that they are skeptical of Musk’s explanation that their now-reversed bans were most likely accidents.

“That strikes me as highly implausible, if not impossible,” said Steven Monacelli, a journalist and correspondent for the Texas Observer whose account was among the at least eight that were removed. “If it is possible, it is a reflection of how terrible the state of engineering has become on this platform.”

*shrug*

Here's a serious problem that Twitter had before Musk bought it:-

You're straying a bit here. If you want to stray like that, though, perhaps you'd be interested in addressing the larger, more relevant arguments that I pointed out when I said that Twitter served better as a free speech platform before Musk. Note that I'm not even close to claiming that Twitter before Musk was perfect.

I can see how something like that might run afoul of suspension algorithms.

You're assuming that it was algorithms. That was done as a permaban, though, and well -

“Musk went on for months about how there should never be permanent suspension,” wrote Mike Masnick, the founder of tech news site TechDirt, in response to the bans. “And here we are one week in and he’s perma-banning people for making jokes at his expense.”

Going a bit further, well...

And while comedy accounts impersonating Musk were quickly suspended on Monday, at least one malicious impersonation seeking to scam users out of their money was flying below the radar. The verified account of Joe Memmel, a musician with more than 6,000 followers, changed its username to “Tesla Live” and announced (falsely) that Musk was running a “charity raffle” of more than $100 million, inviting users to click on a dangerous link to “get their winnings right now.”

I'm not inclined to just assume that Musk wasn't involved when Musk has a track record of getting involved when he feels like it and, well, his personality and history.

A leaked internal message appears to show Elon Musk ordered Twitter staff to suspend a left-wing activist's account

Moving on, though.


Twitter was banning people for dubious reasons long before Musk took over.

Duh? Was there anyone who tried to argue otherwise?

Here's a small selection of notable members who were banned in 2021.
The large proportion of high profile political conservatives who were banned, many of them permanently, is concerning, as are the numerous accounts that were banned for no apparent reason.

Mmm. Except that a bunch of the bannings of right-wingers weren't dubious at all. Seriously, you started out that list with Trump and you're trying to pretend that he wasn't banned for extremely good cause and that we should be deeply concerned about that? The bigger problem there was that Twitter had long been neglecting to follow their rules when it came to him because they profited notably from that neglect, rather than it being a problem when he was finally banned for breaking the rules in a rather extreme manner.

With that said, with Musk, instead of that, we got -

Left-Wing Voices Are Silenced on Twitter as Far-Right Trolls Advise Elon Musk

Elon Musk appears to have outsourced decisions about who to ban from Twitter to the platform's right-wing extremists.


If you want to make things about bans more broadly, of course, that can be done. Going more broad in that just makes it ever more clear that Musk's "Free Speech Absolutism" isn't anything close, though. If you want to bring politics into it, there's a lot more reason to believe that Musk is pointedly worse.

But everyone has forgotten about them

Your claim here is not rooted in either fact or reason.

as we rush to accuse Musk of personally banning accounts that 'mocked' him. Perhaps he did - though we have no actual evidence for this accusation. But perhaps - at least in some cases - there were legitimate reasons for those accounts being suspended (eg. faking another person's account). But we will ignore that possibility because it doesn't fit our narrative.

*shrug* And if all you've got is that knee jerk defense, you don't actually have all that much of a defense. Musk's quite undermined his personal credibility over and over and over. For that matter, even if there were other potential reasons for disciplinary action, there's been very real issues with enforcement. Hence part of why we've ended up with verified pro-Nazi X accounts flourishing under Elon Musk.

X’s policies ban glorifying violence — a broad prohibition that X has sometimes used to take down pro-Nazi content and accounts. The rules also ban “praising violent entities” and say the platform will apply labels to hate imagery like swastikas. But NBC News found that X does not appear to be enforcing those policies consistently.

The findings are the latest evidence of a flourishing Nazi network on X under Musk’s ownership. Previous investigations by news organizations and anti-hate watchdogs have documented many examples of antisemitism, white supremacy and support for Nazism on X.

You may as well try to make the case that the inconsistent enforcement and increased Nazi problem that X has is pro-Free Speech, if you keep trying to argue in the vein that you are.
 
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It's natural for people to react badly to criticism of themselves, so I wouldn't be surprised if Musk broke his own rules in that regard. If so then he deserves to be called out on it. However that doesn't mean X is not achieving its goal of being a free speech platform.
Forgive me, I'm lazy. Can you provide examples of these people who are banned for criticizing Musk?

Since Galaxy Brain bought Twitter it stopped being a free speech platform as evidenced by the company's craven capitulation to dictators like Xi and wannabe dictators like Modi and Erdogan.
 
That's disappointing. I was hoping for something more substantial.




I wouldn't call that 'rather serious problems'. Here's a serious problem that Twitter had before Musk bought it:-







I can see how something like that might run afoul of suspension algorithms.

Twitter was banning people for dubious reasons long before Musk took over. Here's a small selection of notable members who were banned in 2021.
The large proportion of high profile political conservatives who were banned, many of them permanently, is concerning, as are the numerous accounts that were banned for no apparent reason.

But everyone has forgotten about them as we rush to accuse Musk of personally banning accounts that 'mocked' him. Perhaps he did - though we have no actual evidence for this accusation. But perhaps - at least in some cases - there were legitimate reasons for those accounts being suspended (eg. faking another person's account). But we will ignore that possibility because it doesn't fit our narrative.

'Meh' indeed.
And ALL of a specific category.
Interesting to see Anne Marie Brady on your list, who has concerns the Chinese government are interfering with New Zealand politics.
Good list thanks Roger.
 
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"Memphis"? I get the distinct impression that you're omitting salient facts.

He is, overall. With that said, that did happen.

Technical (or employee error) problems do and did happen, in general. Such makes it at least mildly plausible that Musk had no hand in the temporary bans I poked at first. If that particular occasion is taken alone and without context, it makes technical error more plausible. The direction of the supposed "mistakes" is a suggestion for what's actually being targeted in the claimed sweep, of course.

Unfortunately, Musk has a history of banning journalist accounts under false pretenses after suddenly implementing rules and facing backlash for it, among other things. Musk has a history of seeking to quietly ban people. Musk has a history of removing content displeasing to him, as he did with the community notes. Musk has a history of lying like crazy about all kinds of things and being a thin skinned *******. More could be said, but it's Musk who has created plenty of cause to doubt Musk and consider Musk trying to get away with banning critics to be completely in line with his usual erratic behavior.
 
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And ALL of a specific category.

Just to clarify, what specific category are you considering to include ALL on the list?

It's flat out weird to try to group together Trump, for example, and the Olympics one.

The Olympics one, incidentally, received a temporary ban because -

The account's owner's date of birth was mistakenly set to 24 January 2014, the date the committee was created, causing the account to be automatically banned for not meeting the minimum age requirement of Twitter.
 
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Thanks! Now I know that the salient fact Roger ommited is there was a software bug and it was fixed within one day.
How is that fact 'salient'?

Here's how:-
If one were quite biased in favor of doing so, you could buy the "It was an accident!" excuse...

So, is anyone buying Twitter's claim that the 'Memphis' bans were caused by a software bug, ie. an 'accident'? If so then I guess that makes them 'quite biased', right? :rolleyes:

Or does pre-Musk Twitter get a pass for bans that Musk's Twitter doesn't? If so then there's a bias alright, just not the one being suggested here.

BTW I only omitted the 'reason for suspension' column because it wouldn't fit in my post and summarizing them would be too much work. They are all there on the Wikipedia page for anyone to check out - not that they are particularly relevant. A ban is a ban, whether deliberate or caused by a 'technical glitch'. Both causes are problematic.

The difference is that before Musk took over Twitter 'conservative' members were complaining about it, while afterwards 'liberal' members were. The problem is we don't know if this is a real effect or just selection bias. Lets say some 'glitch' caused 10,000 random members to get banned. If a few of them happened to be Musk haters you can bet they would be crying foul, and then it looks like they are being targeted because they are the only ones you hear about.

As a skeptic I have to be skeptical of claims based on data which may have a strong selection bias. You should be too. Perhaps Musk is occasionally putting his thumb on the scale of free speech, but when I asked for evidence of this the reply was 'Twitter served better as a free speech platform before Musk' and 'If one were quite biased in favor of doing so, you could buy the 'It was an accident!" excuse' - which is why I had to look it up for myself.

The Wikipedia list shows that prominent members were being both deliberately and 'accidentally' banned long before Musk took over. But even that list is biased towards 'notable' examples. There may be many thousands who were banned that we don't know about. If so then it weakens the claim that Musk is specifically targeting people who criticize him. If the number of 'unfair' bans is not significantly higher on Musk's Twitter then it refutes the claim that it was better before.

Without unbiased data we can't know the actual truth of the matter. But some people don't care about that. Anything that supports their own biases will be held up as supporting evidence, while anything that doesn't will be cynically dismissed or ignored. Fundamentally dishonest, but standard operating procedure in our post-fact world.

But the worse thing is that those of us who push back on that get accused of being 'fanbois' of whatever it is that's being vilified, when nothing could be further from the truth. It's not about liking or not liking something, but accepting the facts as they are, not just believing what you want to be true.
 
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Mmm. Except that a bunch of the bannings of right-wingers weren't dubious at all. Seriously, you started out that list with Trump and you're trying to pretend that he wasn't banned for extremely good cause...
Sure they were.

Trump was the President of the United States. Muzzling him was preventing us from finding out what he really thought, which was counterproductive. Trump was permanently banned for 'severe violations of Twitter's Civic Integrity policy', following the Jan 6 insurrection. But the event had already happened so he couldn't do much harm - except to himself. Twitter denied him the rope he was using to hang himself with, allowing more conservatives to pretend that he wasn't so bad. That's part of the reason Trump is preferred by 49% of registered voters vs 43% for Biden, which is more than scary.
 
I don’t know if I’m alone, but that’s where I stop reading.

You and Roger, probably.

The rest of us have seen plenty of self-aggrandising statements from Musk bragging about his extensive knowledge in multiple areas. Including the infamous "At this point I think I know more about manufacturing than anyone currently alive on Earth." which is simply laughable.

That makes him a perfect target for ridicule.

That and him being a massive ****, of course.
 
But the event had already happened so he couldn't do much harm - except to himself.

I don’t see your logic.

Then, as is the case now, his words (via Twitter then and Truth Social now) can and do spur his more rabid supporters into taking action - actions involving threats and intimidation, or sometimes actual violence. It’s perfectly reasonable to muzzle Trump [i)before[/i] someone actually gets killed or injured, much as Judge Merchan is doing now. I think Twitter was right not to be complicit in allowing inflammatory language on their platform.
 
So, is anyone buying Twitter's claim that the 'Memphis' bans were caused by a software bug, ie. an 'accident'? If so then I guess that makes them 'quite biased', right? :rolleyes:

Ahh, conveniently ignoring the parts of the picture that don't fit your attempted narrative. That's the ticket!

Or does pre-Musk Twitter get a pass for bans that Musk's Twitter doesn't?

Why would it? Your argument seems to hinge upon ignoring relevant things and then turning around and accusing others of ignoring irrelevant things.

BTW I only omitted the 'reason for suspension' column because it wouldn't fit in my post and summarizing them would be too much work. They are all there on the Wikipedia page for anyone to check out - not that they are particularly relevant. A ban is a ban, whether deliberate or caused by a 'technical glitch'. Both causes are problematic.

I'd be kinder here, except for the part where you omitted such and then tried to fill in the gap you left with aspersions and misleading comments.

The difference is that before Musk took over Twitter 'conservative' members were complaining about it, while afterwards 'liberal' members were. The problem is we don't know if this is a real effect or just selection bias. Lets say some 'glitch' caused 10,000 random members to get banned. If a few of them happened to be Musk haters you can bet they would be crying foul, and then it looks like they are being targeted because they are the only ones you hear about.

Part of that's fair in a general sense, but you've provided no evidence to believe that it's actually in play. Part of that's an eye-roll worthy rewriting of history.

Before Musk took over, there were complaints from all across the spectrum and the complaints varied significantly when it came to how rooted in reality they were. Before Musk, the objective of the company was obviously focused on profit, though, rather than pushing some agenda. Yes, a number of right wingers did get banned - generally for very reasonable cause. Bear in mind the larger situation that was going on for a moment - the political right wing acting very, very badly and dishonestly in pointedly harmful ways. Promoting violence, for example, isn't some praiseworthy thing.

Musk swooped in spouting right wing CT justifications with little grounding in reality, added an amount of debt that made company bankruptcy nigh certain, and made a bunch of mindbogglingly terrible changes in line with right wing CT complaints and pointedly endorsed a right wing political party. He's created plenty of reality based cause to be wary of political bias in ways that a general profit motive does not. He's created plenty of reality based reason to distrust his claims that he supports Free Speech and much reason to believe that what he actually supports is a caricature of Free Speech.

but when I asked for evidence of this the reply was 'Twitter served better as a free speech platform before Musk' and 'If one were quite biased in favor of doing so, you could buy the 'It was an accident!" excuse' - which is why I had to look it up for myself.

Rewriting recent history again, eh? "Twitter served better as a free speech platform before Musk" was NOT a reply to such a request for evidence. It was a reply to you claiming that X is still serving as a free speech platform.

Dishonesty does your argument little good.


The Wikipedia list shows that prominent members were being both deliberately and 'accidentally' banned long before Musk took over. But even that list is biased towards 'notable' examples.

Of course it is.

There may be many thousands who were banned that we don't know about.

Thousands? See the History part of your link. Hundreds of thousands of accounts have indeed been banned in many years for various offenses, especially relating to terrorism. That's not changed under Musk. Over 200,000 accounts in around a month in India alone, to poke at an example.

Still, before you try to crow victory and try to somehow use that as exoneration, the history section from your link also has a very relevant bit to the more specific discussion -

Many anti-fascist activists were purged from Twitter in November 2022 after Musk outsourced content moderation decisions to the platform's users, notably inviting right-wing journalist Andy Ngo to report anti-fascist accounts directly to him. Among those suspended were a group that provides armed security to LGBT events, accounts parodying Elon Musk, and a Palestinian news outlet known for criticizing the Israeli military.

Musk pointedly gave content moderation decisions to right wing political extremists! He made it perfectly clear that he intended to be personally involved in getting left wing accounts banned! Accounts parodying Musk were targeted as part of that!

Oh, but you try to argue that it's unreasonable to take any clues from that. Uh huh.


But the worse thing is that those of us who push back on that get accused of being 'fanbois'

If the shoe fits...

of whatever it is that's being vilified, when nothing could be further from the truth. It's not about liking or not liking something, but accepting the facts as they are, not just believing what you want to be true.

Sure. Taken as a general matter, that's entirely fair. When you're ignoring the facts and context and putting forth outright lies as you just did in your post (intentionally or not, I don't care) about what's been said to try to defend your position, while also throwing up fair generalities that just don't actually apply, that's not fair at all.
 
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I don’t see your logic.

Then, as is the case now, his words (via Twitter then and Truth Social now) can and do spur his more rabid supporters into taking action - actions involving threats and intimidation, or sometimes actual violence. It’s perfectly reasonable to muzzle Trump [i)before[/i] someone actually gets killed or injured, much as Judge Merchan is doing now. I think Twitter was right not to be complicit in allowing inflammatory language on their platform.

Eventually, at least. Either way, Roger Ramjets' argument pretty much comes down to Trump being above the rules and that Twitter *should* have actively been putting its thumb on the political scales.

I can't say that I support either of those things.
 
Just to clarify, what specific category are you considering to include ALL on the list?

It's flat out weird to try to group together Trump, for example, and the Olympics one.

The Olympics one, incidentally, received a temporary ban because -
The category is one I have no interest in elaborating on, but there are many high quality thinkers.
 
I don’t know if I’m alone, but that’s where I stop reading.

As with Roger, that's a you problem not a me problem. If you are unwilling to read accurate information about a person just because a little well deserved ridicule* is thrown in, you're cutting your nose to spite your face.

*And all I'm doing is taking Musk's self conception (he really does think he's a super genius the world needs to obey) and throwing in a soupcon of sarcasm.
 
Out of curiosity how many lawsuits did Twitter launch against groups who lawfully obtained data about Twitter and published that data and their conclusions? We know X has launched at least two such lawsuits.
 
The category is one I have no interest in elaborating on, but there are many high quality thinkers.

I see. I'll have to conclude that you can't produce a meaningful one that fits ALL Roger Ramjets' selected examples, much less all the examples before Roger Ramjets filtered through them to poke at the ones that he felt like.
 
Because all you ever do is read things you already agree with. Your opinion is worthless.

He blocks speech he doesn't agree with but allows actual literal nazis to spread hate. While I don't disagree that Nazis should be allowed to talk provided they are not encouraging violence or spreading outright lies etc etc. but not if you are also blocking other people from speaking for saying things you don't like.

That is because he likes the Nazi speech, why else would he have endorsed their view of the jews?
 
That is because he likes the Nazi speech, why else would he have endorsed their view of the jews?
So to put some meat on this bone I looked for the most egregious way to view this.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023...musk-abhorrent-promotion-of-antisemitic-tweet

There seems no polite way to say this any more, but if people view Islam as a cult as I do, it is jarring to imagine Jews as promoting their opportunity to become majorities in cities like Brussels.
It sounds complex to me, and I would rather understand this via X than have no knowledge.

As an example from the article

"Musk ignited a firestorm of criticism when he praised a post on X, echoing the belief, common among white nationalists, that white people in Western countries are being “replaced” with an influx of immigrants from countries in the global south."

"The conspiracy theory that Jews are responsible for facilitating this “replacement” through support for immigration and resettling refugees is the same belief that motivated a far-right gunman who stormed a synagogue in the city of Pittsburgh and killed 11 worshipers.
That attack, which took place in October 2018, was the deadliest anti-Semitic attack in US history."
 
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