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A warning about Pentecostalism

psionl0

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The following is reproduced from the Australian Politics thread.

Basically, the argument is that Pentecostalism is more insidious than other forms of religion (especially in politics) because it embraces the idea of "Dominionism".

Discuss.
For those new to this argument, welcome. Psionl0 and I have been having this discussion for some time, and I think it's a good opportunity to summarise the state of the conversation.

In our past discussions, I have said that Morrison is Pentecostal Christian, attending the Hillsong Megachurch, and that particular denomination carries with it certain baggage that made a Prime Minister of that congregation problematic - namely, Dominionism and Prosperity Theology, both of which are strongly associated with Hillsong and Pentecostalism. I have no direct knowledge of whether Scott Morrison actually believes in these theologies, but it would be very consistent with what we do know if he did, and quite inconsistent if he didn't.

Dominionism (specifically, Kingdom Now Dominionism) is the belief that the right type of Christians should occupy positions of secular power in order to bring about God's kingdom on earth, which is a prerequisite for God's ultimate plan as described in the Book of Revelation.

Prosperity Theology is the belief that God will give material rewards for piety, which means that if you are not wealthy you are just not pious enough.

The combination of these two theological positions is that people will get into power who believe that poor people are poor because they deserve it, and the only way to lift oneself out of poverty is to join the Church and pray to Jesus. Morrison's record on welfare is well-documented.

The final reason why Pentecostalism is a problem in politics is that Pentecostals believe that they have a direct personal connection to God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. As directly stated by Morrison many times, religion plays a critically important part in every aspect of a Pentecostal Christian's life. This means that a) Morrison would only do something if he believed that God approved of it, b) the things that God approved of would be immutable, even if it appeared on the surface that they had problems - God would compensate in other ways to ensure the greater good, and c) the nature of Pentecostal faith means that these beliefs were absolute and unshakeable, because doubt is literally a plot by Satan. Not figuratively literally, literally literally.

I know these things because they were what I was taught when I went to the same church Morrison goes to.

Nowhere have I said that he was trying to bring about either a theocracy or an apocalypse, though both theocracy and the apocalypse are very much active teachings of his church, and nowhere did I say that he was "dangerous" whatever that might even mean in this context. However, this appears to have been the only message Psionl0 has ever taken from my nuanced and informed discussion on the subject. Psionl0 has also said on several occasions that I have claimed to be able to read Morrison's mind, though how he has come to this conclusion remains a mystery to this day.

What I have said is that Morrison was a very poor Prime Minister, and that his religion almost certainly played a part in why. And his inadequacies as Prime Minster culminated in the Australian people voting him out of office in 2022.

I hope this has cleared up any misunderstandings, and brought newcomers up to date with the state of the conversation, which hasn't changed in five years.
 
Don't really know too much about it, but I'm and atheist, so they're all kind of the same to me. Of course, some are more dangerous than others.
 
The following is reproduced from the Australian Politics thread.

Basically, the argument is that Pentecostalism is more insidious than other forms of religion (especially in politics) because it embraces the idea of "Dominionism".

Discuss.

What do you think?
 
What do you think?
I think that there are far worse ideas than "Dominionism" or "Prosperity Theology". For example, climate change denial or that we should not allow "inferior" races to breed.

As far as politicians go, one thing they believe in above all else is votes.
 
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I think that there are far worse ideas than "Dominionism" or "Prosperity Theology". For example, climate change denial or that we should not allow "inferior" races to breed.

As far as politicians go, one thing they believe in above all else is votes.

In the post you quoted there is nothing that states those beliefs are the worst ideas so your response above doesn't seem to be about the post you used to create this thread and therefore not what you were asked about. Presumably you have an opinion that is about religion since you've created this thread in the religion section? What is your religious point?
 
Don't really know too much about it, but I'm and atheist, so they're all kind of the same to me. Of course, some are more dangerous than others.

There's a big difference between a Christian who believes that our senses and intellect are gifts from God that enable us to understand God's creation and that we should "do good" in this world as an expression of faith and love of God but that mostly God restricts their activities to the next world, and a fundamentalist who believes that every word in the bible is true and it's blasphemous to use reason to question it.
 
There's a big difference between a Christian who believes that our senses and intellect are gifts from God that enable us to understand God's creation and that we should "do good" in this world as an expression of faith and love of God but that mostly God restricts their activities to the next world, and a fundamentalist who believes that every word in the bible is true and it's blasphemous to use reason to question it.

I think the worse type are the Calvinist and similar types, doesn't matter what you do in this world you are already damned or blessed. For the similar types I mean the type personified by the likes of Mother Theresa, in which we should be grateful if we are suffering, that should be viewed as god's gift, the poor should be grateful for their plight. Both lend themselves to an approach that seeks not to improve the lot of living people. It's cold and callous if you don't share their beliefs.
 
I think the worse type are the Calvinist and similar types, doesn't matter what you do in this world you are already damned or blessed. For the similar types I mean the type personified by the likes of Mother Theresa, in which we should be grateful if we are suffering, that should be viewed as god's gift, the poor should be grateful for their plight. Both lend themselves to an approach that seeks not to improve the lot of living people. It's cold and callous if you don't share their beliefs.

None of which is relevant to the idea that certain types of Christian should be in charge of governing the rest; and that was the whole reason for the discussion in the first place.

Frankly, every denomination established in any religion could be accused of favouring itself as the anointed governor class, at least in terms of religious governance (and that was often secular governance too).
 
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None of which is relevant to the idea that certain types of Christian should be in charge of governing the rest; and that was the whole reason for the discussion in the first place.

Frankly, every denomination established in any religion could be accused of favouring itself as the anointed governor class, at least in terms of religious governance (and that was often secular governance too).

Quakers?
 
None of which is relevant to the idea that certain types of Christian should be in charge of governing the rest; and that was the whole reason for the discussion in the first place.

Frankly, every denomination established in any religion could be accused of favouring itself as the anointed governor class, at least in terms of religious governance (and that was often secular governance too).

Of course it is relevant, if your belief is to not to try and improve the world and you are in control you will not try to improve the world.

For instance, the RCC has a strand of such based on the "The poor will always be among you" scripture. Mother Teresa, although not having faith for a long time, still implemented this in her "work", transferring much of the donations people made to her thinking they were going to help the poor, direct to the RCC as she did not believe in alleviating the god given suffering and poverty. Pain according to her beliefs is a blessing - "Pain and suffering have come into your life, but remember pain, sorrow, suffering are but the kiss of Jesus - a sign that you have come so close to Him that He can kiss you." Personally I'd rather have a shot of morphine than Jesus's kisses no matter how hot he may have been.
 
Of course it is relevant, if your belief is to not to try and improve the world and you are in control you will not try to improve the world.

For instance, the RCC has a strand of such based on the "The poor will always be among you" scripture. Mother Teresa, although not having faith for a long time, still implemented this in her "work", transferring much of the donations people made to her thinking they were going to help the poor, direct to the RCC as she did not believe in alleviating the god given suffering and poverty. Pain according to her beliefs is a blessing - "Pain and suffering have come into your life, but remember pain, sorrow, suffering are but the kiss of Jesus - a sign that you have come so close to Him that He can kiss you." Personally I'd rather have a shot of morphine than Jesus's kisses no matter how hot he may have been.

Which still doesn't refer to governance of countries, but there we go. Are you going to change the thread title to reflect your view that this isn't a Pentecostal issue, but a religion issue?
 
The following is reproduced from the Australian Politics thread.

Basically, the argument is that Pentecostalism is more insidious than other forms of religion (especially in politics) because it embraces the idea of "Dominionism".

Discuss.

When you say "more insidious that other religions", do you mean 'all other religions" or "some other religions"?

If the former, then I don't think that's an accurate representation of what you've quoted. If the latter, then it's not exactly an earth-shattering revelation. Where are you hoping to go with this discussion?

I think that there are far worse ideas than "Dominionism" or "Prosperity Theology". For example, climate change denial or that we should not allow "inferior" races to breed.

As far as politicians go, one thing they believe in above all else is votes.
Why are you bringing climate change denial and eugenics into this discussion about religion? Are they associated with Pentecostalism?
 
Which still doesn't refer to governance of countries, but there we go. Are you going to change the thread title to reflect your view that this isn't a Pentecostal issue, but a religion issue?

It is directly about the governance of countries. Put a Mother Tersa in charge of your health system and what would you get?
 
It is directly about the governance of countries. Put a Mother Tersa in charge of your health system and what would you get?

An unelected person in government.

I repeat, since you clearly consider other religions to be at least as bad as pentecostalism, are you going to change the thread title?

ETA - Sudden thought - the obvious group of people who consider thamselves to be the ones in charge are those who read PPE in university and enter politics with the express intention of governing. The religion of PPE is strong.
 
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Of course it is relevant, if your belief is to not to try and improve the world and you are in control you will not try to improve the world.

For instance, the RCC has a strand of such based on the "The poor will always be among you" scripture. Mother Teresa, although not having faith for a long time, still implemented this in her "work", transferring much of the donations people made to her thinking they were going to help the poor, direct to the RCC as she did not believe in alleviating the god given suffering and poverty. Pain according to her beliefs is a blessing - "Pain and suffering have come into your life, but remember pain, sorrow, suffering are but the kiss of Jesus - a sign that you have come so close to Him that He can kiss you." Personally I'd rather have a shot of morphine than Jesus's kisses no matter how hot he may have been.

Which still doesn't refer to governance of countries, but there we go. Are you going to change the thread title to reflect your view that this isn't a Pentecostal issue, but a religion issue?
There is however Catholic Integralism, which does say governance should be based on Catholic dogma.
 

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