Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire III

[P.J. Denyer]

I know several people like that.

In their case, at least, the phrase that comes to mind is "all the gear, no idea".

As I was going to say, I have guitar signed by Jeff Lynn, it doesn't make me a member of ELO.

 

[Steve]

Come forward to whom?

To Vixen and other CTists of course. Because who doesn't want to expose themselves to online harassment and abuse by Dunning Kruger loonies.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

No, it is not an update. It is a correction. Someone boobed and omitted to exclude MHEV's.

Thus it contains new information compared to the initial statement.

 

[smartcooky]

Really? I used to be an amateur photographer with a couple of SLR's and a whole range of different lenses, flashes, film, manual adjustments, etc. etc. What do I know about calculating depth of field or light quality.

Being an amateur photographer does not qualify you as an expert in photogrammetry.

 

[Vixen]

Bollocks. What interest does the Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service have in protecting the Range Rover brand, or EVs in general?

In a serious incident, such as this, the Police are involved as well as the Fire and Rescue Services, who collaborate in investigating what happened. The Police has always been insular and give out information on a 'need to know' basis. The Fire Brigade is responsible for producing the report. The Fire and Rescue Services are answerable to the government.

The post is held by a junior minister or Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State who reports to the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, who takes ultimate responsibility for fire and rescue, but that is part of a much wider brief.

Michael Gove: Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government
Stephen Greenhalgh, Baron Greenhalgh: Appointed in 2020 as Minister of State for Fire at MHCLG[34][35]

wiki

So your belief that they have a free hand in giving out information is misconceived.

 

[zooterkin]

Being an amateur photographer does not qualify you as an expert in photogrammetry.

Indeed. I'm a semi-professional photographer with over 10 years experience, and I'm currently studying photography to degree level, and nothing I've done so far would prepare me, except in the most basic way, to analyse video footage in the required way. I think I have the basic capacity to go off to learn what was needed, if required, but it's not knowledge the average amateur tog would have.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Vixen why are you implicitly claiming knowledge in subjects you are abjectly, woefully wrong about?

 

[zooterkin]

In a serious incident, such as this, the Police are involved as well as the Fire and Rescue Services, who collaborate in investigating what happened. The Police has always been insular and give out information on a 'need to know' basis. The Fire Brigade is responsible for producing the report. The Fire and Rescue Services are answerable to the government.

wiki

So your belief that they have a free hand in giving out information is misconceived.

You really shouldn't be throwing around so much straw in a thread about fire.

None of that has anything to do with an official statement by the BF&RS explicitly stating the fire started in a diesel vehicle.

You have no evidence of them lying, of them being told to lie, nor, in fact, any reason why they should lie, since the vehicle was a diesel, not any sort of EV, so there is no interest to protect.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

If, as you say, 'The most likely reason, IMO, for not publishing make, model, year, colour and trim level of the car is that they did not have that info confirmed at a time when it was newsworthy', then ipso facto the press release on 11 October 2023, which has not changed, is 100% speculation based on 'best educated guess'.

We will not know whether it is 'colluding in covering up a deception on the British people' until we see the report. Let's see if they name the brand, make, model and year or whether it remains unspecified. I suspect Sunak is 'protecting the Tata JLR brand' and that would be more to do with ethics and why people accept that level of self-interest.

I notice that once again you are running away from answering the question. Will you explain what it is you think the press will reveal after the report is published and "protocol" permits? You're accusing them of colluding in covering up a deception on the British people. Do you anticipate their admitting that?

Meantime, you are conflating what the press knows (with such confidence they can publish it) with what the fire service knows from the consilience of evidence available to them from their own officers, witnesses, CCTV or the car's owner.

Your personal demand to be told the make, model and year of the car is not a compelling reason to expect the authorities to dance to your tune.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

A cornerstone of conspiracy theorists I've seen is that everything is evidence for their pet delusion.

The lack of evidence that the BFRS lied because there's no special interest to protect is instead evidence they must have lied to protect the special interest in EVs. Because the conspiracy theorist works backwards from the desired conclusion nothing can refute that conclusion, and anything that appears to do so will be dismissed as a lie to cover up the conspiracy.

 

[Vixen]

I notice that once again you are running away from answering the question. Will you explain what it is you think the press will reveal after the report is published and "protocol" permits? You're accusing them of colluding in covering up a deception on the British people. Do you anticipate their admitting that?

Meantime, you are conflating what the press knows (with such confidence they can publish it) with what the fire service knows from the consilience of evidence available to them from their own officers, witnesses, CCTV or the car's owner.

Your personal demand to be told the make, model and year of the car is not a compelling reason to expect the authorities to dance to your tune.

In which way would you call it 'a deception', if it is quite legal for government ministers to profit financially from their own policies? Why would you support a minister's right to do that? He or she is not working in YOUR interests as a British taxpayer, so why defend their right to secrecy and suppression of information in relation to it? I am at a loss to understand why people are so happy about an already very rich guy using press embargo to protect the financial interests of he and his wife.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Your personal demand to be told the make, model and year of the car is not a compelling reason to expect the authorities to dance to your tune.

Which is another hallmark of the mind of a conspiracy theorist, a hyper inflated ego and rampant paranoia.

The conspiracy theorist believes themselves to be so brilliant, and their often wrongheaded and profoundly ignorant questions of such importance that the 'refusal' or 'failure' to answer the questions means they must be hiding something otherwise why not answer them? This of course ignores that fact that the questions are normally baseless, loaded, utterly insane or a combination of all three.

 

[Wudang]

Which is another hallmark of the mind of a conspiracy theorist, a hyper inflated ego and rampant paranoia.

The conspiracy theorist believes themselves to be so brilliant, and their often wrongheaded and profoundly ignorant questions of such importance that the 'refusal' or 'failure' to answer the questions means they must be hiding something otherwise why not answer them? This of course ignores that fact that the questions are normally baseless, loaded, utterly insane or a combination of all three.

And combine that with this from Dunning and Krugers' original paper

5.2. Incompetence and the Failure of Feedback
One puzzling aspect of our results is how the incompetent fail, through life experience, to learn that they are unskilled. This is not a new puzzle. Sullivan, in 1953, marveled at “the failure of learning which has left their capacity for fantastic, self-centered delusions so utterly unaffected by a life-long history of educative events” (p.80).

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ncompetence_Lead_to_Inflated_Self-Assessments

I've found this thread wonderfully educational both directly from posts by JayUtah and others and indirectly by giving me things to look up. Then again I'm actually curious about the world.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The press release was on 11 October 2023, whilst the fire was still smouldering behind Andrew Hopkinson and he very clearly said, 'we believe'...'at this stage'...subject to further investigation'"

We all know this was a press statement, not a press release, but your pathological aversion to admitting being wrong makes you keep up the charade of calling it a press release. It's cringeworthy.

There has not been any further press release because we are all awaiting the report.

The 'update' in March was simply a reiteration of what was said 11 Oct 2023.

Untrue. You just called it a correction. Therefore it was not the same information. It spoiled your imagined version where the fire service used weasel words to mislead the public without strictly lying, which was always absurd.

I will wait for the proper report, if that is OK with you?

Imagine how short this thread would be if only you were content to do that.

 

[Matthew Best]

Vixen why are you implicitly claiming knowledge in subjects you are abjectly, woefully wrong about?

That's a bit unfair. I mean, what choice does she have?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

To Vixen and other CTists of course. Because who doesn't want to expose themselves to online harassment and abuse by Dunning Kruger loonies.

Or indeed every other person who feels short-changed by their insurance company's payout.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

In which way would you call it 'a deception', if it is quite legal for government ministers to profit financially from their own policies? Why would you support a minister's right to do that? He or she is not working in YOUR interests as a British taxpayer, so why defend their right to secrecy and suppression of information in relation to it? I am at a loss to understand why people are so happy about an already very rich guy using press embargo to protect the financial interests of he and his wife.

More evasion. Try to focus.

This digression began when LondonJohn said if it were true about "the Luton incident having been caused by an EV, and that the "powers that be" were lying and misdirecting about it having been caused by an EV, in order to protect the EV industry and/or personal financial interests related to EVs" then at least one of them would be on the story like a terrier. And you replied that they would not publish that story before the report as this would be against protocol.

So I want to know what it is you anticipated their publishing when 'protocol' premits. This appears to be an impossible question for you to answer as you've deflected about half a dozen times now.

For the removal of doubt I do not think it is lawful for ministers to profit from their own policies, I do not support their doing so, I do not support a misuse of ministerial powers to keep such things secret and I do not believe in your crank theory about some press embargo stopping such a scandal being reported. Your attempt to suggest I do think these things appears to be more deflection to avoid answering the question about what 'protocol' (or 'embargo') is preventing the press from saying and which they will be free to say after the report is published.

 

[junkshop]

'...as of that stage when we gave the press release'...

These words do not appear in the press release phiwum quoted. You are lying.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

Not winging it. It is what reputation damage limitation is all about. It's about protecting the brand. Brand reputation damage being one of the leading causes of business failure (cf Gerard Ratner). So something happens surrounding a product. A crisis management team is put together to issue statements such as 'We take this matter extremely seriously' (or even 'incredibly seriously'): all stops are pulled out to 'reassure the public'.

It's about 'managing expectations'.

I recognise the technique.

Bollocks. What interest does the Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service have in protecting the Range Rover brand, or EVs in general?

As I read it, Vixen is explaining why she puts so much effort into protecting the Vixen brand.

All language can be used to obfuscate. The purpose of 'Plain English' in official documents was to aid people in, for example, claiming benefits, or applying for a passport. Unfortunately, it is also used to mislead people in - as a prime example - the tabloid press. For example, in the DAILY EXPRESS everybody is in a constant state of 'fury' or 'humiliation' because it is too lazy to use words to report accurately.

Reminds me of someone who tried to mislead people by pretending a dictionary definition of "conspiracy" was actually that dictionary's definition of "conspiracy theory".

With my highlighting:

If, as you say, 'The most likely reason, IMO, for not publishing make, model, year, colour and trim level of the car is that they did not have that info confirmed at a time when it was newsworthy', then ipso facto the press release on 11 October 2023, which has not changed, is ]100% speculation based on 'best educated guess' .

We will not know whether it is 'colluding in covering up a deception on the British people' until we see the report. Let's see if they name the brand, make, model and year or whether it remains unspecified. I suspect Sunak is 'protecting the Tata JLR brand' and that would be more to do with ethics and why people accept that level of self-interest.

I suspect the sentence in pink is 100% speculation based on 'worst uneducated guess'.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Do you have a citation for this, or is it simply an argument along the lines of 'If you criticise EV cars you are supporting Russian oil sales'?

His video "Don't scrap your old car! Send it to Ukraine. Says man."



From the auto-generated transcript, starting about the 5:30 mark:

I'm not really sure how I feel about
that I'm quite a peaceful dude and I
don't really want my car that I traded
in a car that I've loved for many years
to then go and be used to kill people
whichever side they're on uh surely what
we should be doing is peace like we
should be pro peace in this country but
we're not we're we're quite clearly pro
war
um everyone's got their Ukraine flags up
because they want Ukraine to win but
really surely we should be flying white
flags and trying to get resolve
with what's going on there and again
before I get totally torn down in the
comments because I'm not a political
commentator and I'm not a war expert and
I've not been to Ukraine or Russia so
I'll leave it to the comments for you
guys to sort this one out I just think
that you're better off saying hang on a
minute guys we should all get along
instead of picking a side donating an
absolute ton of money that goes to
questionable places and then sending
vehicles to them that they can mount
machine guns on so the good guys can kill the bad guys in a situation where it's absolutely not clear which ones are the good guys and which ones are the bad guys [time stamps omitted; obvious errors and typos corrected]

Additionally, here is an excerpt from the only comment to this video that he pinned, with no commentary of his own; this clearly shows that he approves of the sentiments expressed.

Pinned by Geoff Buys Cars
@timkelly5602
7 months ago
A car with a machine gun is no match for Russian missiles, the chances of them helping anything except ferrying press ganged youngsters and over 60s to the front line to be blown apart in the first Russian defences.... it's not a war of terrorists firing at each other from the back of pick ups, this is full missile barrage massacre or meat grinder for the Ukrainians... more likely they will be used to terrorise civilians than rescue them, given Ukraine's record of 9 years firing missiles at their own citizens in the East, (plus abductions, torture, murder, child trafficking and medical experiments of any ethnic minorities, which includes Russian speakers, Romany etc) who unsurprisingly prefer to be joined to Russia which actually protects them... the people of Ukraine are caught between a hugely corrupt criminal regime in Kiev (78% blame [z]elensky for the corruption) and ultra nationalist groups who enjoy shooting Russian speakers 'we shot them like pigs' (actually SBU special police stated this when they rounded up 'collaborators' and Russian sympathisers) and tying folk to lamposts in imitation of the village stocks of old....

this is a very sick and twisted regime that have killed thousands of their own people for the sake of Ukrainian 'superiority'... (likely cheered on and directed by the US/UK who were determined to force Russia into conflict since 2014) Russia stepped in just days before up to 120,000 troops were due to genocide up to 1.5 million people in the Donbass region for daring to exercise their right to self determination of seceding from a Neo-Nazi embedded regime....
for Russia their SMO (special military operation) has three aims 1. demilitarising Ukraine as it refused to obey Minsk ceasefires and kept bombing civilians (still do daily after 9 years) 2. to Denazify Ukraine and prosecute killers within those ranks 3. to Protect the Russian speakers of the Donbass (Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, Zaparoje etc) and secure their territories which the Ukrainian regime wished to kill the owners and steal the lands as most industry and fertile lands are in the East, historical Russian lands until 1991 and owned by Russian speaking families for generations... likely that the grifters in the Ukraine regime would then sell those lands to Blackrock/Monsanto as they have already sold 170,000 acres from the West... the Western created regime there are acting like they were brought in to 'break up the company and sell off the assets'.... while also weakening Russia, which has totally backfired on Europe via the insane refusal to buy fuels from Russia which has decimated Germany industry and many small businesses throughout Europe... and Russia getting stronger militarily and economically... [ellipses original]​

I personally think it is a good thing that ordinary knowledgeable people are allowed to freely express an opinion.

Assumes facts not in evidence.