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Split Thread Musk, SpaceX and future of Tesla

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And an EV made in China is not the same as a Chinese EV.

One of my Teslas was made in China.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Lol... read the rest of the article.

The $35,000 window sticker of Volvo's compact SUV hits a sweet spot in the U.S. market, where most buyers cannot afford most EVs. The competitive price reflects an unusual combination of Geely's China-specific cost advantages and Volvo's ability to skirt U.S. tariffs on Chinese cars because it also has U.S. manufacturing operations,
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I don't know how they are managing to get away with that. Even Tesla can't get away with calling their cars 'American' if they use batteries or other major parts from elsewhere. Unless Geely is is actually manufacturing these cars in the US using mostly US made parts, I suspect they will be slapped down.

The consumer won't be buying a <UNKOWN CHINESE BRAND> they'll be buying a "Volvo".
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Volvo is a Chinese brand. But what's important is where they are made. The US doesn't want jobs going to China that could be filled by US citizens. The US doesn't want electronics full of Chinese spyware (they probably aren't, but paranoia reigns). When cars are made in the US the price goes up. Tesla will be able to compete with anything made in the US, no matter where the parent company hails from.
 
it's cute how many people think they need to protect a centi-billionaire from people who are mean to them on an online forum.

the no.1 thing we have in a society with Freedom of Speech is the right, I would say obligation to give the Rich and Powerful **** all day long, as they clearly are not using their wealth to help anyone but themselves and other rich and powerful people - if they did, they wouldn't be so rich.

And it's a lame argument that Musk is doing something for anyone but themselves and Tesla when he does the bare minimum to get billions from the Government.
The MAIN problem that Tesla has is that its core resource has dried up: selling EV certificates.
When Obama legislated that car makers have to sell a certain % of their cars as electric, Tesla argued that they would be able so sell the parts of their 100% share of electric cars to others - and they did so for whenever they needed money.

Now, as other carmakers have EVs, that way to print money no longer exists.

Musk is just getting in on the same scam, now with charging stations.

This is just Musk being a Corporate Welfare Queen, as he has been has entire career.


Every Taxpayer has the Obligation to ask why someone who's entire wealth is based on their taxes gets to have hundreds of billion and still receive more taxpayer money - and pay almost no taxes themselves because they have a scam charity.
 
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Roger Ramjets said:
I don't know how they are managing to get away with that. Even Tesla can't get away with calling their cars 'American' if they use batteries or other major parts from elsewhere. Unless Geely is is actually manufacturing these cars in the US using mostly US made parts, I suspect they will be slapped down.

Volvo is a Chinese brand. But what's important is where they are made. The US doesn't want jobs going to China that could be filled by US citizens. The US doesn't want electronics full of Chinese spyware (they probably aren't, but paranoia reigns). When cars are made in the US the price goes up. Tesla will be able to compete with anything made in the US, no matter where the parent company hails from.
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Not to the average American car buyer.

Protectionism and trade with China (etc) is a very complicated subject. Sure we want domestic industry and the jobs that come with it, but you want to throw metaphorical Kerosene on inflation? Start reducing our imports from China and watch as consumer prices for many goods go up by double digit percentages. Just slapping tariffs on everything associated with China is not likely to happen. There is a lot of politicking going on when we say we're making China pay, versus reality.
 
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Fast Eddie B said:
I propose a new informal logical fallacy: Argumentum ad Muskum.

It takes the form: IF Musk does it THEN wrong.
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Don't know anybody who uses that fallacy. I do see a lot of people accusing others of using it as a way to avoid having to consider Musk sceptic arguments.

Full disclosure: I do have a rule of thumb that says "if Musk said it, it is probably a lie". I wouldn't use that in a public argument though without back up. For example, on the earnings call, he said Tesla will be bringing out new cheaper models at the beginning of 2025. By my rule of thumb, that is probably a lie. However, if arguing with somebody else, I'd point to the ridiculously short time scale and the fact that the Model 2 was only canned a few weeks ago which means they probably only started developing their new cars a few weeks ago.


But in the case of his charging network, for instance, IF he keeps it exclusive and a “walled garden” THEN he’s a selfish scoundrel only driven by making more money. On the other hand…

IF he makes his charging network open to other brands, THEN he’s a selfish scoundrel only driven by making more money.
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Who has made both of those arguments? It's always been clear to me that, for BEVs to be a real success, everybody needs to have access to all of the charging networks, in the same way as they have access to all of the gas stations.
To some here, it seems like he’s incapable of ever doing the right thing, regardless of what he does. Kind of a reverse fanboyism.
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Maybe you should pay more attention to the actual arguments rather than just writing the sceptics off as Musk haters.
 
Lplus said:
That's not the reason. The reason is Musk has turned into just another billionaire right of centre industrialist, after being the darling of the green left for seeming to be someone who would challenge the practices of the established capitalist system and the internal combustion engine.
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Ehh. Nah. THE main reason we're discussing Musk, at all, is because Musk pretty much bought the attention, alongside the major media platform that he bought, and has utilized that attention *quite* irresponsibly as he aids and abets groups like white supremacists, Nazis, and the like under blatantly false and CT pretenses, all while very publicly making various business mistakes that even most children probably wouldn't make. Ongoing backlash against that kind of ongoing behavior is largely what brought and has kept Musk in the spotlight.

If Musk was "just another billionaire right of centre industrialist," he wouldn't be getting even close to as much attention, nor would he be being "picked on" so much. Calling what's being done to Musk "picked on" feels like it doesn't really fit, either way. If a bully and fraud gets comeuppance for their bad behavior, that's really not a case of them being "picked on."
 
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jeremyp said:
Full disclosure: I do have a rule of thumb that says "if Musk said it, it is probably a lie".
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My rule of thumb is more “IF Musk says it THEN it’s almost certainly hopelessly optimistic”. This is especially obvious concerning timelines. But utilizing the Principle of Charity, I don’t automatically assume he’s willfully lying.

As to what you’re “not seeing” in this thread, I see it everywhere. Certain posters with a knee jerk negative take on whatever Musk says or does. I don’t see myself as a fanboy - much of the criticism of Musk I see here is well deserved. I think I have a more open mind. But maybe that’s exactly what a fanboy would say!
 
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Lplus said:
That's not the reason. The reason is Musk has turned into just another billionaire right of centre industrialist, after being the darling of the green left for seeming to be someone who would challenge the practices of the established capitalist system and the internal combustion engine.
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if you change "right of centre" to "far right" Galaxy Brain was always that. It's just that up until a few years ago nobody was listening to what he was actually saying.
 
Unfortunately, we live in a time where a certain political figure has popularized playground level derogatory nicknames for his opponents.

Not the kind of thing I’d expect in a discussion on an allegedly skeptic-oriented forum.

But here we are.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
Unfortunately, we live in a time where a certain political figure has popularized playground level derogatory nicknames for his opponents.

Not the kind of thing I’d expect in a discussion on an allegedly skeptic-oriented forum.

But here we are.
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Unlike Galaxy Brain I don't libel people who disagree with me.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
My rule of thumb is more “IF Musk says it THEN it’s almost certainly hopelessly optimistic”. This is especially obvious concerning timelines. But utilizing the Principle of Charity, I don’t automatically assume he’s willfully lying.
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The trouble is that he says "we'll release X product by Y date" and is wrong every time. I'm sorry but, by now, a genius of his calibre should have spotted the pattern, which means his "hopeless optimism" is deliberate i.e. he knows the deadline is impossible to meet, but he says it anyway. That's a lie in my book.
 
jeremyp said:
The trouble is that he says "we'll release X product by Y date" and is wrong every time. I'm sorry but, by now, a genius of his calibre should have spotted the pattern, which means his "hopeless optimism" is deliberate i.e. he knows the deadline is impossible to meet, but he says it anyway. That's a lie in my book.
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Which wouldn't be a big deal if he didn't have a majority share of the company: it's t Stock manipulation.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Which wouldn't be a big deal if he didn't have a majority share of the company: it's t Stock manipulation.
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He doesn't have a majority share in Tesla. It's currently around 13%. What he does have is a sycophantic board of directors and a bunch of shareholders who are terrified of what will happen to the price if they sack him.
 
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