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Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

If age verification has worked for gambling (biometricupdate.com), then what are we waiting for with regard to pornography?
Online age verification in gambling has proven effective and there is limited evidence to suggest that further measures are needed to prevent minors from gambling online, according to a new UK government review of the country’s gambling regulation.
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Roger Ramjets said:
That's because republicans lack empathy.

No joke.

Ideological values are parametrically associated with empathy neural response to vicarious suffering
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I don't doubt that they think as well as feel that the poor are responsible for their own poverty and thus are entitled to neither help nor empathy, but in the case of the (not only) Republican cuck* fantasies, I think it's a bit more complicated than that:

1) See my previous posts about sex and shame: Because women aren't supposed to want to have sex, it is found to be shameful and humiliating if they do. Thus a woman may compensate in the realm of fantasy and dream of being taken against her will: She desires to have sex but can't want to 'do the dirty'. The dialectics of this contradiction finds its solution in the fantasy of getting to do it and blaming somebody else.
2) The man (married or in a relationship) who is turned on by the same fantasy - i.e. that the only way for a woman to have sex requires a solution that lets her have sex without wanting to - soon notices that shameful sex disappears in a normal relationship: It more or less goes without saying that they both want sex without it being embarrassing. But since he is turned on by the idea of shame and humiliation, he fantasizes about her being coerced into having sex with somebody else. (Maybe even somebody black, the ultimate humiliation of a racist.)
But that's when it gets even more twisted:
3) He is ashamed of his own fantasy: How could he ever ask his wife to do something like that? In particular when she is not even supposed to want it. The fantasy solution is to have somebody else not only force his wife to have sex but also force him to watch his wife have sex.
4) In this way, the humiliation of himself becomes the kink, and the pinnacle of this humiliation is when his wife joins the rapist in the humiliation of him, praises the rapist, and tells her husband how inadequate he is and that he is nowhere near as good in bed as the rapist.

People are weird in this way and yet very difficult to figure out. I once noticed that one of the most frequently used words in Penthouse letters was embarrassed. It's kind of funny that a thing people usually do so much to avoid appears to be such a turn on in sex for many people.

*Busted: Another oligarch-fellating cuck of Trump World (CounterPunch, Jan 31, 2019).
 
Emily's Cat said:
Re-read my post, please. It's not about the female surrendering control of their female self. It's about the female exerting power over the male, to a point where the male surrenders control of their male self.
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Sorry, but it doesn't make it any better. It may "not generally [be] the same kind of rape that happens in real life." No, of course it doesn't, since it's not rape but rape fantasies or idealized rape: Rapists being "entranced by the entirety of the female's being, including their mind and character."

Emily's Cat said:
This is a bit of an aside, but what is depicted in romance novels isn't quite the same. It's not about wanting to be raped, it's about wanting a male to desire you so much that they surrender their control over themselves. And it's very rarely a situation where the man in question is focused solely on the female's body, they're entranced by the entirety of the female's being, including their mind and character.

That doesn't imply that it can't be problematic - it certainly can. But it's not generally the same kind of rape that happens in real life.
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You should ask yourself why anybody at all can find it beautiful, even as a fantasy, to "surrender their control over themselves." It should be obvious to you what the literal realization of this fantasy looks like in real life: bdsm.
Love and sex don't require this at all. You can have sex while still being in full control of yourself, and being in full control of yourself doesn't require being in control of your sex partner. Nobody needs to surrender.
I wouldn't personally want or consent to any other kind.
 
Poem said:
Could you explain this please?
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I already did:
dann said:
1) See my previous posts about sex and shame: Because women aren't supposed to want to have sex, it is found to be shameful and humiliating if they do. Thus a woman may compensate in the realm of fantasy and dream of being taken against her will: She desires to have sex but can't want to 'do the dirty'. The dialectics of this contradiction finds its solution in the fantasy of getting to do it and blaming somebody else.
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https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14294923#post14294923
 
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dann said:
Sorry, but it doesn't make it any better. It may "not generally [be] the same kind of rape that happens in real life." No, of course it doesn't, since it's not rape but rape fantasies or idealized rape: Rapists being "entranced by the entirety of the female's being, including their mind and character."




You should ask yourself why anybody at all can find it beautiful, even as a fantasy, to "surrender their control over themselves." It should be obvious to you what the literal realization of this fantasy looks like in real life: bdsm.
Love and sex don't require this at all. You can have sex while still being in full control of yourself, and being in full control of yourself doesn't require being in control of your sex partner. Nobody needs to surrender.
I wouldn't personally want or consent to any other kind.
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I think you're missing a big part of this. It's about power - and historically females do not have power over males. For most of our recorded history, the only power we females have had is the power to arouse males... and that is a double-edged sword. We often end up arousing males unintentionally, simply through the fact of our existence.

In these kinds of female-based romance fantasies, the core of the fantasy is about a female exerting power over a male, usually an already very powerful male, and one that the female *wants* to exert power over. In those romance novels, there may be acts of rape, but they're almost never entirely unwanted acts - they're things that the female protagonist wants to have happen anyway. And they almost always end up with the male surrendering some element of their power, some aspect of their dominance, and being *helpless* before the all-consuming power of their love for the female protagonist.

They're not about rape, they're about power. It's just a very crass and to me degrading form of power.
 
Still not seeing any tenable refutation of the clear evidence for rape culture.
I'm male, but we are a disgrace aren't we? With 1 in 3 woman experiencing sexual or physical violence, convictions rates at around 2% and a toxic culture that has normalized violent porn and does little to stop children watching, then what other conclusion is there?
 
Poem said:
Still not seeing any tenable refutation of the clear evidence for rape culture.
I'm male, but we are a disgrace aren't we? With 1 in 3 woman experiencing sexual or physical violence, convictions rates at around 2% and a toxic culture that has normalized violent porn and does little to stop children watching, then what other conclusion is there?
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No, you are not a disgrace, neither is your sex as a whole.

Yes, a massive number of females experience sexual violence and harassment, and yes, conviction rates are shamefully low.

But it's important to keep in mind that just because 1 in 6 females are the victims of attempted or completed rape does NOT imply that 1 in 6 males are doing the attempted/completed raping. I've met thousands of males throughout my life, maybe tens of thousands. I've had two of those males try to rape me. I've had perhaps a hundred of them over my lifetime who have sexually assaulted or harassed me.

The bad actors are a small minority, and most people know that. The problem is that the bad actors aren't cruising around with bright orange road cones on their heads so we know who they are. Females end up having to be a bit on guard toward males in general, because we can't tell which are safe and which are a danger. The degree of guardedness varies by situation too. When I'm at work, I give very little thought to the sex of the people I'm interacting with. At the outside edge, I tend to be a wee bit less casual with males that I only work with once in a while or who give of a weird vibe. If I'm out in public in a group of people that I know fairly well, my guard is pretty low and I don't think about it much except to avoid behaviors that might be mistakenly viewed as flirting. If I'm out by myself, especially when there are few people around, I'm extremely aware of my surroundings, and I'm much more likely to take steps to avoid males in general and maintain distance from them.

It's an unfortunate reality, but that's how it is. Because we can't tell which males are the risky ones, we end up being on guard against males in general in a way that we aren't on guard against females.

I think the same is true for any number of other situations too, and is just as rational. Most dogs are sweethearts, but some dogs are dangerous. Small dogs, even if aggressive, aren't likely to do significant harm that results in permanent injury or death. Big dogs are a different story though, and an aggressive doberman or malinois or pitbull can do serious harm. For most people, if the dog is leashed or in the presence of their owner, we don't really worry about that risk because it's either managed or mitigated. But i we run across an unaccompanied dog out in the world, we'll have more caution. If that unaccompanied dog is small it may be only a little bit of caution, but if it's a big dog we're generally going to be a lot more cautious.
 
Emily's Cat said:
No, you are not a disgrace, neither is your sex as a whole.

Yes, a massive number of females experience sexual violence and harassment, and yes, conviction rates are shamefully low.

But it's important to keep in mind that just because 1 in 6 females are the victims of attempted or completed rape does NOT imply that 1 in 6 males are doing the attempted/completed raping. I've met thousands of males throughout my life, maybe tens of thousands. I've had two of those males try to rape me. I've had perhaps a hundred of them over my lifetime who have sexually assaulted or harassed me.

The bad actors are a small minority, and most people know that. The problem is that the bad actors aren't cruising around with bright orange road cones on their heads so we know who they are. Females end up having to be a bit on guard toward males in general, because we can't tell which are safe and which are a danger. The degree of guardedness varies by situation too. When I'm at work, I give very little thought to the sex of the people I'm interacting with. At the outside edge, I tend to be a wee bit less casual with males that I only work with once in a while or who give of a weird vibe. If I'm out in public in a group of people that I know fairly well, my guard is pretty low and I don't think about it much except to avoid behaviors that might be mistakenly viewed as flirting. If I'm out by myself, especially when there are few people around, I'm extremely aware of my surroundings, and I'm much more likely to take steps to avoid males in general and maintain distance from them.

It's an unfortunate reality, but that's how it is. Because we can't tell which males are the risky ones, we end up being on guard against males in general in a way that we aren't on guard against females.

I think the same is true for any number of other situations too, and is just as rational. Most dogs are sweethearts, but some dogs are dangerous. Small dogs, even if aggressive, aren't likely to do significant harm that results in permanent injury or death. Big dogs are a different story though, and an aggressive doberman or malinois or pitbull can do serious harm. For most people, if the dog is leashed or in the presence of their owner, we don't really worry about that risk because it's either managed or mitigated. But i we run across an unaccompanied dog out in the world, we'll have more caution. If that unaccompanied dog is small it may be only a little bit of caution, but if it's a big dog we're generally going to be a lot more cautious.
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It's shocking to hear how many have assaulted you. Can I ask how low level (if it is indeed low) the harassment is? (I'm assuming it has to be somewhat low for it to be that many). I accept that it's a minority of men, but in terms of fuelling the toxicity of a world saturated in porn and it's mimetic effects (particularly on young men and I've cited a number of articles), then we have a lot to answer for.
 
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Poem said:
It's shocking to hear how many have assaulted you. Can I ask how low level (if it is indeed low) the harassment is? (I'm assuming it has to be somewhat low for it to be that many). I accept that it's a minority of men, but in terms of fuelling the toxicity of a world saturated in porn and it's mimetic effects (particularly on young men and I've cited a number of articles), then we have a lot to answer for.
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Two attempted rapes, both in college. One by a study partner, one by a rando at a party.

You can make your own judgement on how low/high level the assaults are. I've lost track of the number of times a complete stranger has grabbed my butt or breast in a crowded venue... I'd say more than 10, less than 30? On two memorable occasions at concerts when I was younger, I had a complete stranger grab my crotch and press themself up against me. On one of those occasions, I had the great joy of watching a male friend who was with our group punch them - I'm not a violent person, but sometimes FAFO seems like a pretty reasonable response.

For harassments, I honestly can't even put a number to how many times a complete stranger has stared at my breasts, or my butt - like not "oh gee, that person has noticed my body" but outright leeringly ogled me. Or how many times some random person on the street has told me what they'd like to do to me - not with me, but to me - in graphic detail. I'm not even all that, I'm short with small breasts, and I've never been particularly risque in my clothing choices.

What I don't consider in that estimate are cases where I was at a party or a club or similar venue, struck up a conversation with someone of the opposite sex, and they mistook that for flirtation and tried to go for a kiss. That has happened too, but they've pretty much always been met with embarrassment and apologies, so I consider those to be honest mistakes. I also don't count dirty jokes or joking comments, even if they're inappropriate. I don't count humorous innuendo for giggles.
 
Poem said:
that many). I accept that it's a minority of men, but in terms of fuelling the toxicity of a world saturated in porn and it's mimetic effects (particularly on young men and I've cited a number of articles), then we have a lot to answer for.
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When did this start? Because I remember porn back in the 60's. Playboy magazine started up in 1953. In the late 1970's I bought a video recorder. 2/3rds of the video hire shelves were full of porn movies. Porn started to appear on home computers in the early 1980's, as soon as they could generate any kind of graphics. I heard stories about local 'amateur' porn producers. At that time I was into photography. There was a genre the magazines called 'glamour' (wink,wink). This was all before the internet and smartphones, and porn was everywhere. I lived a very 'sheltered' life by choice, so I reckon what I saw was just the tip of the iceberg.

The attitudes some of the guys I worked with had towards women were shocking - stuff nobody would admit to today. But back then it was accepted (not by me, but I was a rare outsider to that culture). I think the stuff we are seeing online today is no different to what was being spread around when I was young, just that today it's more visible. OTOH society's attitudes towards rape are less tolerant today than they were back then - and rightfully so.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Two attempted rapes, both in college. One by a study partner, one by a rando at a party.

You can make your own judgement on how low/high level the assaults are. I've lost track of the number of times a complete stranger has grabbed my butt or breast in a crowded venue... I'd say more than 10, less than 30? On two memorable occasions at concerts when I was younger, I had a complete stranger grab my crotch and press themself up against me. On one of those occasions, I had the great joy of watching a male friend who was with our group punch them - I'm not a violent person, but sometimes FAFO seems like a pretty reasonable response.

For harassments, I honestly can't even put a number to how many times a complete stranger has stared at my breasts, or my butt - like not "oh gee, that person has noticed my body" but outright leeringly ogled me. Or how many times some random person on the street has told me what they'd like to do to me - not with me, but to me - in graphic detail. I'm not even all that, I'm short with small breasts, and I've never been particularly risque in my clothing choices.

What I don't consider in that estimate are cases where I was at a party or a club or similar venue, struck up a conversation with someone of the opposite sex, and they mistook that for flirtation and tried to go for a kiss. That has happened too, but they've pretty much always been met with embarrassment and apologies, so I consider those to be honest mistakes. I also don't count dirty jokes or joking comments, even if they're inappropriate. I don't count humorous innuendo for giggles.
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Thank you for sharing this.

Do you believe porn has at least partly fuelled such behaviour? We know some boys are being influenced and it may also be similar with (some) adults (especially with men and CSAM).
 
Roger Ramjets said:
When did this start? Because I remember porn back in the 60's. Playboy magazine started up in 1953. In the late 1970's I bought a video recorder. 2/3rds of the video hire shelves were full of porn movies. Porn started to appear on home computers in the early 1980's, as soon as they could generate any kind of graphics. I heard stories about local 'amateur' porn producers. At that time I was into photography. There was a genre the magazines called 'glamour' (wink,wink). This was all before the internet and smartphones, and porn was everywhere. I lived a very 'sheltered' life by choice, so I reckon what I saw was just the tip of the iceberg.

The attitudes some of the guys I worked with had towards women were shocking - stuff nobody would admit to today. But back then it was accepted (not by me, but I was a rare outsider to that culture). I think the stuff we are seeing online today is no different to what was being spread around when I was young, just that today it's more visible. OTOH society's attitudes towards rape are less tolerant today than they were back then - and rightfully so.
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I think 1969 is significant since that was when Denmark legalised porn - the first country to do so.
 
Poem said:
Thank you for sharing this.

Do you believe porn has at least partly fuelled such behaviour? We know some boys are being influenced and it may also be similar with (some) adults (especially with men and CSAM).
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Not for me... I'm almost 50. Most of my experiences were 30 years ago, when most porn was still in magazine or professionally produced movie form.

When I talk to younger females about their experiences, how they're treated, and what is expected of them when having sex, there's definitely a big difference. Those younger females do tend to think that exposure to porn has an impact, and I suspect they're right.

For example, when I was in high school and college, straight sexual interactions were pretty much limited to manual and oral sex, with vaginal penetration as the high point. In college, the most adventurous people I knew *might* have had a threesome, or *might* have had a string of one night stands. From the accounts shared with me by younger females, that has changed. Now the general expectation is that sex is casual in nature, most people are just expected to be down with meaningless sex without a relationship involved and no expectation of fidelity. And it's become very common for young females to be expected to engage in anal sex as well as choking. That's what is considered "normal" now.
 
The statistics show the opposite - the younger generations are having less sex with fewer partners than the older generations did at their age.
 
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