Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire III

[Vixen]

But you pretended, yesterday, that it was "the latest news", remember:


You then pretended that a journalist had presented it as "the 'latest announcements' and revelations", despite the story you quoted having clearly identified the statement about the lack of sprinklers as something that had been said at the time of the fire:

Yes, because the BBC report I was quoting from is dated 10 April 2024 and in the interim you produced one dated way back in October 2023 saying the same thing! So the 'latest update' was just a rehash in effect. Like all the rest of the stuff since 11 October 2023.

 

[Vixen]

You seem to have forgotten (among other things) that the fire spread beyond the vehicle in which it started.

Yes, the fuel tank is at the back of the vehicle. From the CCTV that was issued by the airport and authenticated by the press, it was the lower left front passenger area that was throwing out flames. No sign of leaking fuel on the ground, or any liquid, such as brake fluid or coolant.

So: how did a low-grade diesel fire, which any fireman will tell you can easily be put out by an extinguisher at an early stage, turn an entire car park into a burning inferno with ceilings and cars crashing down. Yes, there is the element of shoddy workmanship, given the construction company were cash strapped but it is ridiculous to avoid the elephant in the room of a lithium-ion battery fire which could not be controlled by a fire extinguisher, or two.

 

[GlennB]

Yes, the fuel tank is at the back of the vehicle. From the CCTV that was issued by the airport and authenticated by the press, it was the lower left front passenger area that was throwing out flames. No sign of leaking fuel on the ground, or any liquid, such as brake fluid or coolant.

So: how did a low-grade diesel fire, which any fireman will tell you can easily be put out by an extinguisher at an early stage, turn an entire car park into a burning inferno with ceilings and cars crashing down. Yes, there is the element of shoddy workmanship, given the construction company were cash strapped but it is ridiculous to avoid the elephant in the room of a lithium-ion battery fire which could not be controlled by a fire extinguisher, or two.

9/11 Truther: "An office fire can't melt steel!"

 

[Mojo]

Yes, because the BBC report I was quoting from is dated 10 April 2024 and in the interim you produced one dated way back in October 2023 saying the same thing! So the 'latest update' was just a rehash in effect. Like all the rest of the stuff since 11 October 2023.

The BBC report you quoted said, as part of the background to a 'human interest' story:

It was designed without sprinklers and at the time of the blaze Andy Hopkinson, the county's chief fire officer, said: "We are already talking to the airport about ensuring that any future, and the existing, car parks have sprinklers fitted... sprinklers may have made a positive impact on this incident."

It wasn't an update, it was just background information clearly identified as having come from the time of the fire. You mischaracterised it as "the latest news", so you could pretend that it was part of an ongoing campaign of "evasions":

And the evasions will continue. The latest news is that the fire was due to 'a lack of sprinklers' and this will be rectified in future.

 

[JayUtah]

You seem not to understand the maths and physics.

Do not attempt to teach physics.

This is insufficient even to buckle steel used in construction.

False.

...it is likely that the concrete itself didn't just spall, as in the Liverpool fire, but actually melted

Concrete does not melt.

You are laughably ignorant about this.

 

[Mojo]

9/11 Truther: "An office fire can't melt steel!"

I thought that was welding equipment.

 

[JayUtah]

So: how did a low-grade diesel fire, which any fireman will tell you can easily be put out by an extinguisher at an early stage...

Find me a fire fighter who says so. You are not an expert.

Yes, there is the element of shoddy workmanship, given the construction company were cash strapped...

You have no evidence of shoddy workmanship. You're just speculating in ignorance.

...it is ridiculous to avoid the elephant in the room of a lithium-ion battery fire which could not be controlled by a fire extinguisher, or two.

This is not a fact.

 

[Mojo]

This is not a fact.

But some commenters on the Daily Mail website told Vixen it was.

 

[Vixen]

Do not attempt to teach physics.



False.



Concrete does not melt.

You are laughably ignorant about this.

Really?

When does concrete melt?
Melting point of concrete
Concrete is an artificial building material. It consists of a mixture of cement, water and aggregate (sand and gravel). Hence, there is no precise temperature at which concrete melts. Depending on its composition, concrete melts at temperatures between 1150°C and 1200°C. By the way carbon steel melts at temperatures between 1425°C and 1540°C.

https://www.heissbemessung.net/Infothek/Materialien_im_Brandfall/When-does-concrete-melt.html

 

[Andy_Ross]

You seem not to understand the maths and physics. Steel is a mixture of iron and carbon that can melt at between 1,371-1,540°C. The melting point of steel can vary because of the different elements it contains, which can cause melting point depression. Diesel burns at a recorded maximum temperature of 1,150 °C under controlled conditions. This is insufficient even to buckle steel used in construction. However, a lithium-ion car battery burns much more fiercely. The burning lithium creates a metallic fire existing at temperatures of 2,000 °C. As you know, the steel rebars buckling caused the concrete floor/s to collapse and it is likely that the concrete itself didn't just spall, as in the Liverpool fire, but actually melted, although we shall have to see what the report says.

(Attempting to douse the fire with water is inadvisable since this could lead to a hydrogen gas explosion. However, the effect of cold water sprinklers can lessen the effect of other cars igniting so quickly.)

You know nothing about steel and it's properties.
Your post shows this.

 

[autumn1971]

It most certianly relates to how the car owner was unable to put out the fire with a simple fire extinguisher as soon as he became aware his vehicle was on fire. It takes time for a vehicle to reach a sufficient temperature to radiate enough heat to cause nearby vehicles to ignite.

Jesus. You have never been anywhere near a burning vehicle.
And that is good, because within two minutes a vehicle fire is fully involved and hot enough to set fire to anything flammable within five meters.

Just admit you have no idea

 

[Mojo]

Yes, the fuel tank is at the back of the vehicle. From the CCTV that was issued by the airport and authenticated by the press, it was the lower left front passenger area that was throwing out flames. No sign of leaking fuel on the ground, or any liquid, such as brake fluid or coolant.

So: how did a low-grade diesel fire, which any fireman will tell you can easily be put out by an extinguisher at an early stage, turn an entire car park into a burning inferno with ceilings and cars crashing down.

Again, you seem to have forgotten that there were flammable materials other than diesel fuel in the car park. And you also seem to have forgotten what the post you were replying to said.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

It was established that it is unlikely to have been an attempt at conversion to hybrid. No point dwelling on it.

So are you saying it was not a conversion? Do you accept that the conversion of the type you were hinting at does not happen?

Will you apologise for lying about what I said?

 

[JayUtah]

Really?

https://www.heissbemessung.net/Infothek/Materialien_im_Brandfall/When-does-concrete-melt.html

Yes, really. What this person has demonstrated, and erroneously and simplistically attributed to "melting" for lay consumption on his web site, is a high-temperature decomposition of the matrix, causing failure in adhesion, which then fails mechanically. That's what the source he cites confirms.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Oh is Vixen attempting to teach physics again? That's always a good laugh.

 

[JayUtah]

You know nothing about steel and it's properties.
Your post shows this.

Agreed. Steel loses about half its strength at 800 ºC.

 

[smartcooky]

Citation, please of where it said they could cause a fire.

You mean where YOU said it. Sure...

https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14304765&postcount=143

And the evasions will continue. The latest news is that the fire was due to 'a lack of sprinklers' and this will be rectified in future.

 

[smartcooky]

It most certianly relates to how the car owner was unable to put out the fire with a simple fire extinguisher as soon as he became aware his vehicle was on fire. It takes time for a vehicle to reach a sufficient temperature to radiate enough heat to cause nearby vehicles to ignite.

You have no ******* idea. Unlike you, I have had a car catch fire.

It was my cherished Mk1 Lotus Cortina (petrol powered), and even though I had a fire extinguisher, and had it in my hands within seconds, I was unable to prevent my car being destroyed. The fire was under the bonnet, I couldn't get the bonnet open (because the heat had already damaged the bonnet release) and there was no way to get to the base of the fire. In less that a minute the whole car was engulfed.

One in five ICE fires start in the 12 volt electrical system, and this was the most likely cause of my fire, and the Range Rover in question.

Oh, and I don't give a rats arse about your stupid, ever changing conspiracy theory. That Range Rover was the cause.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ho-Arena-car-park-six-months-4x4-recalls.html

Investigators believe the blaze was started when a diesel Range Rover suffered an electrical fault or leaking fuel line.
​

I will take the word of actual, certified fire investigators over some Nancy Nobody conspiracy theorist on the internet.

 

[Steve]

Oh is Vixen attempting to teach physics again? That's always a good laugh.

Same for any other topic.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Agreed. Steel loses about half its strength at 800 ºC.

If it didn't a blacksmiths job would be much more difficult.