U.S. Border and Immigration

[Bogative]

Illegal immigrant Elmer Rueda-Linares, 18, hit and killed Democrat Sen. Cortez Masto's staffer in what is believed to be a drunk driving crash.

He snuck across the border illegally in 2021 and was temporarily detained before being released into the country.

ICE has issued a detainer to keep him in custody. Unfortunately for this illegal, he killed a staffer of a prominent politician so he likely won't be released back into to the public. Maybe next time he should consider just raping a child instead.

https://nypost.com/2024/04/17/us-ne...rtez-mastos-adviser-illegally-entered-us-dhs/

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

Illegal immigrant Elmer Rueda-Linares, 18, hit and killed Democrat Sen. Cortez Masto's staffer in what is believed to be a drunk driving crash.

He snuck across the border illegally in 2021 and was temporarily detained before being released into the country.

ICE has issued a detainer to keep him in custody. Unfortunately for this illegal, he killed a staffer of a prominent politician so he likely won't be released back into to the public. Maybe next time he should consider just raping a child instead.

https://nypost.com/2024/04/17/us-ne...rtez-mastos-adviser-illegally-entered-us-dhs/

No person is illegal. Build bridges, not walls. Free Mumia.

 

[catsmate]

So the US has no right to control who comes into the country or not?

Strawmen.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Illegal immigrant Elmer Rueda-Linares, 18, hit and killed Democrat Sen. Cortez Masto's staffer in what is believed to be a drunk driving crash.

He snuck across the border illegally in 2021 and was temporarily detained before being released into the country.

ICE has issued a detainer to keep him in custody. Unfortunately for this illegal, he killed a staffer of a prominent politician so he likely won't be released back into to the public. Maybe next time he should consider just raping a child instead.

https://nypost.com/2024/04/17/us-ne...rtez-mastos-adviser-illegally-entered-us-dhs/

Legal immigrants and US citizens never drive drunk and kill people.

 

[Bogative]

Laken Riley's killer, Jose Ibarra, an illegal immigrant from Venezuela, was illegally allowed to remain in the country because the detention facility he would've been processed to was full.

For those who are wondering who the **** is Laken Riley? Trump said unpleasant things about the illegal alien who punched her face into her skull. That should trigger your memory.

Link.

 

[Emily's Cat]

All true and fine.

Let's look at the highlighted part - violating the terms of a visa thus invalidating it. If and when that happens, I would become "an illegal". And being "an illegal" is why I would be deported and maybe banned from re-entry. This happens often, by the way, in many countries not just the USA, with no particular public fuss or fanfare. The most common visa violation is overstaying.

What is my legal fate should I be in an illegal visa state and commit a heinous crime? Does the process I face legally change from if I am a valid visa holder?

Did you just not read the first two thirds of my post?

 

[Norman Alexander]

Did you just not read the first two thirds of my post?

That was about someone with a valid visa. I'm asking about someone who does not have a valid visa. So no change?

 

[Emily's Cat]

That was about someone with a valid visa. I'm asking about someone who does not have a valid visa. So no change?

I believe there's a whole lot of variance in what happens, depending on what the crime was, what state or city it was committed in, as well as past history. The country of origin of the perpetrator might come into play as well. Either way, I don't think there's any good reason to exclude deportation as a response.

 

[Norman Alexander]

I believe there's a whole lot of variance in what happens, depending on what the crime was, what state or city it was committed in, as well as past history. The country of origin of the perpetrator might come into play as well. Either way, I don't think there's any good reason to exclude deportation as a response.

Are all those options on the table for US citizens?

 

[Roboramma]

Are all those options on the table for US citizens?

Of course not, why would they be? You can't deport someone when there's no where to deport them to.

And why would the fact that they aren't available for US citizens be a reason not to use them in the case of non-citizens?

 

[Roboramma]

Saw this on Marginal Revolution today:

https://www.wsj.com/business/entrep...ting-u-s-businesses-at-a-torrid-pace-64773fc3

Latin American immigrants are starting businesses at more than twice the rate of the U.S. population as a whole.

The jump in Latino entrepreneurship has driven up the overall share of new businesses owned by immigrants, who accounted for 36% of launches last year compared with 25% in 2019, according to a new analysis of Census Bureau data. New-business creation by white and native-born Americans has slowed in the past two years, following a broad surge early in the pandemic.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Of course not, why would they be? You can't deport someone when there's no where to deport them to.

OK, then that means US citizens have far fewer options available to them than illegal immigrants when it comes to punishment for exactly the same crimes. Do you think that's fair?

And why would the fact that they aren't available for US citizens be a reason not to use them in the case of non-citizens?

Because deportation is not really a punishment. Is it. It's just passing the buck. How many US citizens who get deported from other countries for crimes there actually serve any subsequent sentence for those crimes once they come home? Any?

You want anybody to serve the appropriate sentence for their crime when committed in the USA? Keep them there, put them through the same justice system as US citizens, and punish them the same. If that means US jail or worse, do it. This is what happens in countries like Indonesia.

Just don't use the border situation, whatever it is at the time, or their visa or residency status, be a determining factor.

 

[Roboramma]

OK, then that means US citizens have far fewer options available to them than illegal immigrants when it comes to punishment for exactly the same crimes. Do you think that's fair?

Fair to whom? I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here.

Because deportation is not really a punishment. Is it.

It is to some extent, but to the extent that it doesn't act as an effective deterrent other punishments are available. It's still possible to incarcerate non-citizens prior to deportation.

It's just passing the buck. How many US citizens who get deported from other countries for crimes there actually serve any subsequent sentence for those crimes once they come home? Any?

You want anybody to serve the appropriate sentence for their crime when committed in the USA? Keep them there, put them through the same justice system as US citizens, and punish them the same. If that means US jail or worse, do it. This is what happens in countries like Indonesia.

Just don't use the border situation, whatever it is at the time, or their visa or residency status, be a determining factor.

Why not? You still haven't given a good reason not to deport criminals.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Fair to whom? I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here.

It would seem that US citizens who offend are being denied trial and punishment options and, frankly, get-out-of-jail cards, that are being made available to non-citizens.

E.g. (this is fictional) Some illegal bashes a homeless person. Their punishment options include being tossed out of the USA accompanied by a whole lot of anti-Mexican nastiness. That's basically a free ticket home and probably no punishment at all. I asked above: Why don't you make the same option available to non-illegal US citizens? If they offend, why not deport them too?

It is to some extent, but to the extent that it doesn't act as an effective deterrent other punishments are available. It's still possible to incarcerate non-citizens prior to deportation.

Then why deport them? They've violated your laws - punish them as you would anyone who does so. Deportation is no punishment.

Why not? You still haven't given a good reason not to deport criminals.

Yes, I have. It's not a punishment. If the worst that could happen to me if I (again, very fictional) assassinated Governor Abbott of Texas is that I get hoiked onto the next plane back to Sydney and barred from the USA forever then that's fine by me because I reckon that would be doing the world a favour. So should I plan to come over and buy one of your freely-available guns at a gun-show after I get there?

 

[Roboramma]

Of course deportation is a form of punishment. If you do something to someone that they don't want done in response to some action that they take, that's a form of punishment. Whether or not it is sufficient punishment for the particular crime is a question that should be looked at on a case by case basis. The fact that its not suitable for everyone doesn't mean that it should be eliminated for those cases where it is suitable.

If you think that deportation is being used as a punishment in cases where it doesn't serve as a deterrent, and thus crime rates increase because those who would be subject to deportation know this and aren't deterred by it, then that's an argument that I'm willing to look at on its merits.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Of course deportation is a form of punishment. If you do something to someone that they don't want done in response to some action that they take, that's a form of punishment. Whether or not it is sufficient punishment for the particular crime is a question that should be looked at on a case by case basis. The fact that its not suitable for everyone doesn't mean that it should be eliminated for those cases where it is suitable.

Deportation is not that. If there is no punishment apart from being taken cost-free to the border and pushed over into the country next door, that's actually a case of "don't care if it is done", not "don't want done". Big difference. As I have repeated: deportation is not really a punishment.

Really, there's no loss to most deportees from the USA in never being allowed back in again. There's at least dozens of other countries in the world to live in with similar if not better lifestyles available.

If you think that deportation is being used as a punishment in cases where it doesn't serve as a deterrent, and thus crime rates increase because those who would be subject to deportation know this and aren't deterred by it, then that's an argument that I'm willing to look at on its merits.

It's a matter of misconceptions. Some Americans think that the worst possible thing that could happen to someone is to be tossed out of the almighty and wonderful USA, for whatever reason. In reality, most deportees don't care very much at all. With that in mind, it does free up the possibilities for any immigrants who have a mind to commit serious crimes - they know they can get away with it and if they play their cards right, get a free ride out of Dodge from the sheriff. Fortunately, very very few actually do commit crimes.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Are all those options on the table for US citizens?

Everything except State Department involvement and the potential for deportation, I believe.

 

[Emily's Cat]

OK, then that means US citizens have far fewer options available to them than illegal immigrants when it comes to punishment for exactly the same crimes. Do you think that's fair?

Because deportation is not really a punishment. Is it. It's just passing the buck. How many US citizens who get deported from other countries for crimes there actually serve any subsequent sentence for those crimes once they come home? Any?

You want anybody to serve the appropriate sentence for their crime when committed in the USA? Keep them there, put them through the same justice system as US citizens, and punish them the same. If that means US jail or worse, do it. This is what happens in countries like Indonesia.

Just don't use the border situation, whatever it is at the time, or their visa or residency status, be a determining factor.

This is a very weird tactic you've got going on. None of this is unusual, none of this is unique to the US. Australia has substantially the same rules.

Why are you so determine that the US specifically is somehow obligated to use our citizen's tax funds to support the trial and incarceration costs of people who are here illegally? Why are you so dead-set on having the US specifically be required to retain foreign people who are not here legally rather than returning them to their country of origin?

 

[Emily's Cat]

E.g. (this is fictional) Some illegal bashes a homeless person. Their punishment options include being tossed out of the USA accompanied by a whole lot of anti-Mexican nastiness. That's basically a free ticket home and probably no punishment at all. I asked above: Why don't you make the same option available to non-illegal US citizens? If they offend, why not deport them too?

Because they are US citizens, we as a country are responsible for them.

This seems really obvious to me, but maybe you're not getting the core concept here. We deport people to the countries that these people are legal citizens of. We can't force another country to allow a US citizen into their country, and it seems nuts to expect that other countries would ever consent to allow the US to dump *our* criminals on them.

FFS, we (my family and friends) got denied entry to CA because one person in our car had a misdemeanor assault on their record from 25 years ago! Why on earth do you think it even remotely reasonable to send US citizens with criminal records to another country? Why on earth do you think they would ACCEPT them in?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes, I have. It's not a punishment. If the worst that could happen to me if I (again, very fictional) assassinated Governor Abbott of Texas is that I get hoiked onto the next plane back to Sydney and barred from the USA forever then that's fine by me because I reckon that would be doing the world a favour. So should I plan to come over and buy one of your freely-available guns at a gun-show after I get there?

Are you somehow laboring under the assumption that the US State Department would *not* tell your government that you assassinated a US Politician? Are you assuming that YOUR COUNTRY would not punish you for causing an international incident?