U.S. Border and Immigration

[ahhell]

Just because it looks like chaos to some, does not mean it IS chaos. And just because some biased people SAY it is chaos, does not mean it IS chaos. It could be, but more likely it is chaotic only sometimes and in specific places.

To be clear: personally I have no problem with the USA setting and consistently enforcing its own border rules. Definitely not in favour of a free-for-all either, for the USA or my own country. But I suggest that these rules need to be flexible enough to change with changing circumstances. They did in the past, no reason they can't now and in future.

Sure, but it is chaos and even if it just looks that way, that's a political reality that has to be dealt with and not ignored. Literally millions of illegal border crossings a year isn't exactly order.

No, I don't mean Australia.

 

[Trebuchet]

I think Trump's comment about how the problem with Emigrants is they don't come form the right countries, and then listed the right countries, as Denmark, Sweden and other White European countries shows where he is coming from on immigration.

Socialist countries!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Your scenario is wrong. Little Alex Patterson is your adopted kid, not someone else's kid. He came into your family from somewhere else legally. Although he's not blood, he's yours to deal with. Now he's acting up, you don't get to send him back to wherever you got him originally.

That's not what my analogy suggested... rather it seems to be what you suggested in the post to which I was responding. So... I don't know where that leaves us now.

My point was that the idea that immigrants are allowed stay on sufferance and can be deported for any reason is a bit silly. To be clear: I have no problem with an immigrant criminal being punished appropriately...inside their new country. They chose to come; thems the laws of the country. But tossing them out is simply repeating the problem. They will in all likelihood be back, and do it again. Awesome - two crimes, not one.

It seems as if your prior post did not effectively communicate the intended sarcasm?

No, not it. I am saying treat all criminals the same as illegals. Same punishment for all of them - deportation.

That reads like the opposite of what you're saying here... only amplified by a lot.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The problem is, our media is setting it up as 2 equal sides debating. So of course, the good centrist moderate position is that they should compromise with each other. And if they can't compromise, both sides are equally at fault.

You know that's not what a centrist is, right? It's not a perfect compromise on every topic. It's more a mix from either side. Some liberal positions, some conservative positions, and some that actually do fall in between. In the real world, most people are centrists - most people hold views that are a mix of the positions held by each party, to varying degrees.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Of course it would'nt. You would have tunnels under it within a few weeks..if that long.
I am not gainst border controls...a certain number of bad actors are going to try to sneak in and you have to try to stop them..but a Wall would do nothikng toward that.

How do other countries control who crosses their borders? We're not unique in this - most countries have pretty stringent immigration policies, and have lots of both physical and customs borders that actively prevent people from entering if they can't provide sufficient identification and reason.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Sure, but it is chaos and even if it just looks that way, that's a political reality that has to be dealt with and not ignored. Literally millions of illegal border crossings a year isn't exactly order.

Hmm. The most common types of "illegals" are as-yet unprocessed asylum seekers, and visa overstays or other technical visa violations. That would include drug running, most of which by far comes through "controlled border crossings". Those who cross the border in remote places via coyotes might be asylum seekers or in technical visa violation (they haven't got one). How many seek out authorities to turn themselves in...a long way from the border?

I have no specific recipe on how all of this might be dealt with. But as mentioned above, if what is in place now is deemed to be a failure, what can you suggest that is a viable alternative? Other than turning the USA into Stalag Luft Amerika?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, he thinks we should deport all our homegrown criminals as well as illegals. It's an interesting take certainly.

I believe England tried that sending the low-life to Australia Is there an equivalent island you might suggest?

 

[Norman Alexander]

I believe England tried that sending the low-life to Australia. Is there an equivalent island you might suggest?

My suggestion was to treat all criminals equally. Logically, then, if criminal illegals are being deported, so should home-grown criminals.

That was a follow-on from the initial suggestion that criminal illegals be put in the same jails as home-grown criminals, only to be told that somehow that would fill the jails with them...despite their numbers being only a fraction of a percent of the jail population.

So yes, the deportation suggestion is being provocative. To get people to think about what they are REALLY saying.

Also, I have long suggested an island the US could deport their criminals to: Attu, in Alaska. If it turns into a mini-Australia as a result (takes about 100 years or so) then so much the better.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Nope, the US does not, we actually make it quite difficult for professionals anyway. ...

I don't know about that, here in Microsoftlandia we have a large population of immigrants from Taiwan and India. Pretty sure they have legal VISAs or work permits.


As a side note, I like my family of gardeners. They work fast, they're very nice and they don't charge that much. The grown son was born here so he only works when he's not in school. The parents have been here 20+ years and I think they have green cards but I don't care if they do.

My last gardener, an American born white guy had an issue with drugs. I had to fire him for not showing up multiple times. After that I did the gardening myself for a while until I hired the current crew.

And I had painters, same thing, one of their worker-bees only showed up half the time and he did a lousy job prepping the wood to be painted.

Then there was the small-task carpenter guy I hired to replace my balcony railing. First he said he'd start at 830 AM. He didn't show up until 11 AM. I got quite upset about it, he could have called. He did about 15 minutes worth of measuring and left. The very next day he said the same thing, he'd start at 0830 AM and again he showed up at 11 AM. Who does that? I fired him on the spot. He tried to put a guilt trip on me claiming he had bought the wood. There was no lumber on his truck. I told him that was between the Home Depot and him, I expected him at 08:30 and twice he didn't bother to get here within a reasonable time frame or call, even after I told him it was unacceptable the first time.

Give me my responsible immigrant workers any day. They are so nice, and reliable, and they do excellent work.

Did I mention we (me and my boyfriend at the time) picked pears for a day in Canada because we needed money on our hitch-hiking foray? Not an easy job.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

... what can you suggest that is a viable alternative? Other than turning the USA into Stalag Luft Amerika?

Invest enough tax dollars into proper courts, adequate border crossing facilities, and whatever else it takes to make it reasonable. Economic and political refugees are a world-wide problem. We can't keep trying to deal with on the cheap and like it or not most immigrants want to work.

In the case of immigrants coming here the vast majority are fleeing circumstances we had a large part in creating. All those corporations who had a hand in it and still exist need to be taxed to invest in the countries whose resources were looted with the goal of establishing decent countries said immigrants could be sent back to.

But then I guess I'm one of those hippy-dippy idealists who heard John Lennon's Imagine one too many times.

 

[Emily's Cat]

My suggestion was to treat all criminals equally. Logically, then, if criminal illegals are being deported, so should home-grown criminals.

That actually goes back to my analogy. I don't think it's reasonable to treat all criminals equally, regardless of their citizenship.

Off the top, there's the issue of extradition, and what we do with people who are criminals in a different country, even if they haven't been charged with any crimes in the country they're currently in. The US and our allies have pretty strong extradition treaties in place so that a criminal can't just flee the country and get away with it. I don't think we would want that to change. That would mean that in at least some cases, there may be an immigrant in the US (legally or not) who is a criminal in a different country - and we would be expected to return them to their home country for judicial proceedings. Given that we want the same thing for our citizens who have committed crimes here, we would likely wish to retain that treaty status. And that means that we're NOT treating all criminals the same.

Additionally, again, it's "my kid" versus "someone else's kid". Sending a criminal who is not a citizen and is not here legally back to their home country when they break our laws seems pretty reasonable. We already have overburdened prison systems, and the criminals in question are not legal citizens. We don't have an obligation to place them in our prisons when they break our laws - deportation seems like a fine resolution (perhaps we allow some exceptions in specific circumstances).

On the other hand, exiling our own citizens when they commit crimes is effectively revoking their citizenship rights completely - and that's a whole different ballgame. That's not something I would support under any circumstances.

Part of my lack of support for that is also that it ends up dumping our problem on some other country. What kind of utter ******** would we be if we sent all of of our murderers somewhere else? Additionally, deporting those criminals to a different country is more or less assuming that that other country would somehow be obligated to let them in. That's just not going to happen.

 

[Norman Alexander]

That actually goes back to my analogy. I don't think it's reasonable to treat all criminals equally, regardless of their citizenship.

Devil's advocate mode: So what other criteria might you use to selectively punish criminals? Age? Height above sea level? Skin colour...?

Off the top, there's the issue of extradition, and what we do with people who are criminals in a different country, even if they haven't been charged with any crimes in the country they're currently in. The US and our allies have pretty strong extradition treaties in place so that a criminal can't just flee the country and get away with it. I don't think we would want that to change. That would mean that in at least some cases, there may be an immigrant in the US (legally or not) who is a criminal in a different country - and we would be expected to return them to their home country for judicial proceedings. Given that we want the same thing for our citizens who have committed crimes here, we would likely wish to retain that treaty status. And that means that we're NOT treating all criminals the same.

Interesting, but not the point of my comment.

Additionally, again, it's "my kid" versus "someone else's kid". Sending a criminal who is not a citizen and is not here legally back to their home country when they break our laws seems pretty reasonable. We already have overburdened prison systems, and the criminals in question are not legal citizens. We don't have an obligation to place them in our prisons when they break our laws - deportation seems like a fine resolution (perhaps we allow some exceptions in specific circumstances).

Again, not the subject of my comment.

On the other hand, exiling our own citizens when they commit crimes is effectively revoking their citizenship rights completely - and that's a whole different ballgame. That's not something I would support under any circumstances.

Part of my lack of support for that is also that it ends up dumping our problem on some other country. What kind of utter ******** would we be if we sent all of of our murderers somewhere else? Additionally, deporting those criminals to a different country is more or less assuming that that other country would somehow be obligated to let them in. That's just not going to happen.

Ah, there we go. Back on topic.

Let me ask you this: If I as an Australian citizen, visited the USA and committed a heinous crime, would it be expected that I would have to be processed for that crime in the USA, including appropriate punishment up to and including jail time (or worse)?

If I was deported (back to where I came from - Australia), would the USA expect Australian authorities to prosecute me in its behalf? Conversely, would the USA prosecute US citizens who were deported back home for crimes committed elsewhere?

If the answers are that I would not be deported but have to submit to US law and punishment in the USA, why is that any different for any other types non-citizen residents?

If the answers are that I would be deported, what punishment is that?


I'll give you a real-world example of this situation: As Australians who frequently visit Bali for holidays (many Australians do), we are warned by our own government that we will be subject to Indonesian law while there. Some crimes in Indonesia attract the death penalty, or very long jail sentences, even though in Australia they are trivial misdemeanors. There are Australians right now doing decades in tough Indonesian jails for being idiots and breaking Indonesian laws. The Indonesians do not deport foreign offenders. If you are in, the only out is somehow get a pardon, or diplomatic efforts (usually not successful), or do your time.

What's the problem with non-citizen residents of the USA being similarly prosecuted and punished in the USA under US laws should they commit crimes?

 

[Sherkeu]

Devil's advocate mode: So what other criteria might you use to selectively punish criminals? Age? Height above sea level? Skin colour...?

If the answers are that I would be deported, what punishment is that?

What's the problem with non-citizen residents of the USA being similarly prosecuted and punished in the USA under US laws should they commit crimes?

Tell her where in the US you are committing your crimes? Bali is one small area. USA is humongous. We are a Republic with county and local jurisdictions.

So in NYC nowadays, it seems like you can commit several crimes after entering as a 'sanctuary' 'dont report him' criminal. Even dismembering a body or an attempted murder charge doesnt land you in jail straight away. Out, No Bail. Migrant, illegal, citizen...doesnt really matter. Most things are a misdemeanor now.

Dont tell the Swiss or their brains may explode.

It is difficult to see from afar at times or even believe that this just keeps happening..... like it is weather that no one can stop. Like the laws we already have cannot be enforced. Just suck it up Americans!! Suck it up Western democracies!! Take your sour medicine for the crime of being too prosperous while dictators scoured and pillaged. Take in the people who might hate your very principles for success. Now the West will be destroyed with your own humble generosity.

For criminals. All illegal criminals get deported straight away to an agreed upon foreign jail. American jails just teach them how to be better criminals and they get way better at their english skills.
Commit the crime with illegal entry, go to jail, do not return.

BTW, did you know that
Us residents are not allowed to cross as well. It is a FELONY on our record to do so if caught. We do not get the checks and health care and phones and cash and buses and plane tickets, etc,,,

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

There does appear to be a bit of an outbreak of fascism in Scandinavian countries, perhaps they'd feel at home with Trump?

What the...where do you get this from?

 

[Norman Alexander]

Tell her where in the US you are committing your crimes? Bali is one small area. USA is humongous.

Bali is in Indonesia. Indonesian laws apply across all of Indonesia. The result is the same if you get caught in Denpasar or Jakarta.

We are a Republic with county and local jurisdictions.

Do some US states have the ability to deport people and others not? I think you will find that's a federal responsibility.

So in NYC nowadays, it seems like you can commit several crimes after entering as a 'sanctuary' 'dont report him' criminal. Even dismembering a body or an attempted murder charge doesnt land you in jail straight away. Out, No Bail. Migrant, illegal, citizen...doesnt really matter. Most things are a misdemeanor now.

What the hell is this piffle?

Dont tell the Swiss or their brains may explode.

...why??

It is difficult to see from afar at times or even believe that this just keeps happening..... like it is weather that no one can stop. Like the laws we already have cannot be enforced. Just suck it up Americans!! Suck it up Western democracies!! Take your sour medicine for the crime of being too prosperous while dictators scoured and pillaged. Take in the people who might hate your very principles for success. Now the West will be destroyed with your own humble generosity.

Are you smoking something?

For criminals. All illegal criminals get deported straight away to an agreed upon foreign jail. American jails just teach them how to be better criminals and they get way better at their english skills.
Commit the crime with illegal entry, go to jail, do not return.

No, they don't. Plenty of Australians in US jails, for example. And many other nationalities. The US has been trying to import Julian Assange, an Australian citizen, into the USA for many years in order to prosecute and then jail him in the USA. So clearly the US has no problem at all jailing foreign citizens. Heaven knows, the US has plenty of jails!

BTW, did you know that US residents are not allowed to cross as well. It is a FELONY on our record to do so if caught. We do not get the checks and health care and phones and cash and buses and plane tickets, etc,,,

Not allowed to cross what? To where? Which way? This may make sense in your head, but not in writing.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Let me ask you this: If I as an Australian citizen, visited the USA and committed a heinous crime, would it be expected that I would have to be processed for that crime in the USA, including appropriate punishment up to and including jail time (or worse)?

If I was deported (back to where I came from - Australia), would the USA expect Australian authorities to prosecute me in its behalf? Conversely, would the USA prosecute US citizens who were deported back home for crimes committed elsewhere?

If the answers are that I would not be deported but have to submit to US law and punishment in the USA, why is that any different for any other types non-citizen residents?

If the answers are that I would be deported, what punishment is that?


I'll give you a real-world example of this situation: As Australians who frequently visit Bali for holidays (many Australians do), we are warned by our own government that we will be subject to Indonesian law while there. Some crimes in Indonesia attract the death penalty, or very long jail sentences, even though in Australia they are trivial misdemeanors. There are Australians right now doing decades in tough Indonesian jails for being idiots and breaking Indonesian laws. The Indonesians do not deport foreign offenders. If you are in, the only out is somehow get a pardon, or diplomatic efforts (usually not successful), or do your time.

What's the problem with non-citizen residents of the USA being similarly prosecuted and punished in the USA under US laws should they commit crimes?

If you were an Australian in the US legally (for example with a travel or work visa), then you are subject to US laws. If you commit a crime, you would generally be tried in a US court, under US judicial proceedings. Depending on what the crime was, and what the sentence would be, you could end up with deportation being the outcome. Additionally, having committed a crime in the US (or in AU for that matter) can be grounds for denying you entry to the US in the future.

Depending on the crime and the specific nature of the incident, the US State Department can end up getting involved. In some cases, there will be negotiations with allied countries for how to proceed, how the person is represented, and how the sentence is served.

There are actually a whole lot of situations that can cause revocation of a visa, and subsequent eviction from the US.

For instance - if you're in the US on a travel visa, as a tourist, and you get a job here... you can lose your tourist visa and be deported and additionally denied entry to the US for several years after the fact. The same is true for Australia by the way - there are a whole lot of crimes for which a foreign person can be deported from Australia.

 

[dudalb]

There does appear to be a bit of an outbreak of fascism in Scandinavian countries, perhaps they'd feel at home with Trump?

Quisling Liver!

 

[Norman Alexander]

If you were an Australian in the US legally (for example with a travel or work visa), then you are subject to US laws. If you commit a crime, you would generally be tried in a US court, under US judicial proceedings. Depending on what the crime was, and what the sentence would be, you could end up with deportation being the outcome. Additionally, having committed a crime in the US (or in AU for that matter) can be grounds for denying you entry to the US in the future.

Depending on the crime and the specific nature of the incident, the US State Department can end up getting involved. In some cases, there will be negotiations with allied countries for how to proceed, how the person is represented, and how the sentence is served.

There are actually a whole lot of situations that can cause revocation of a visa, and subsequent eviction from the US.

For instance - if you're in the US on a travel visa, as a tourist, and you get a job here... you can lose your tourist visa and be deported and additionally denied entry to the US for several years after the fact. The same is true for Australia by the way - there are a whole lot of crimes for which a foreign person can be deported from Australia.

All true and fine.

Let's look at the highlighted part - violating the terms of a visa thus invalidating it. If and when that happens, I would become "an illegal". And being "an illegal" is why I would be deported and maybe banned from re-entry. This happens often, by the way, in many countries not just the USA, with no particular public fuss or fanfare. The most common visa violation is overstaying.

What is my legal fate should I be in an illegal visa state and commit a heinous crime? Does the process I face legally change from if I am a valid visa holder?

 

[novaphile]

What the...where do you get this from?

Pretty much every news service in the world.

You need to get out more (or stop watching Fox).

 

[dudalb]

This the kidd of rep that FOx has got.
DIsney is now producing movies thourgh the studio once known as 20th Century Fox which they got in that huge deal a few years back (basicallly movies..many with R ratings..they don't want to release under the Disney label....same thing they did in the 80's and 90's with the Touchstone and Hollywood labels) but in stead of 20th Century Fox they are just calling the studio 20th Century.
I think now wanting to be identifed with the Fox channel is why The Mouse is doing this.