Transwomen are not Women - Part 14

[Hercules56]

If Transwomen ARE in fact women, should they qualify for affirmative action for women? WMBE business grants and opportunities?

And if they do qualify, how trans do they have to be? Must they have undergone surgery and medicinal therapy for a certain number of years? Or do we simply allow someone to check on a box "transwomen" and they all good?

 

[theprestige]

If Transwomen ARE in fact women, should they qualify for affirmative action for women? WMBE business grants and opportunities?

And if they do qualify, how trans do they have to be? Must they have undergone surgery and medicinal therapy for a certain number of years? Or do we simply allow someone to check on a box "transwomen" and they all good?

Let me introduce you to a TRA principle I like to call "fiat self-ID".

 

[Darat]

If Transwomen ARE in fact women, should they qualify for affirmative action for women? WMBE business grants and opportunities?

And if they do qualify, how trans do they have to be? Must they have undergone surgery and medicinal therapy for a certain number of years? Or do we simply allow someone to check on a box "transwomen" and they all good?

There is a part 1 to this thread, start there to catch-up, your questions have already been asked and answered.

 

[d4m10n]

You are engaged in an impossible task, because their beliefs are generally not sincere to begin with.

In my experience, progressive rights activists believe such things with the same sort of fervent devotion that Christians believe Jesus walked on water and Mormons believe he visited America. In fact I'd go so far as to say it's sort of a flex (in their own circles) to commit to the more outlandish versions of the dogma on offer. I say this as the sort of person who once bought an entire table at an ACLU fundraising banquet where we all rubbed elbows with the lawyers who trained the lawyers who drafted that complaint.

That’s why we have such farces as the question of “what is a woman?” being treated as if it’s some intellectual Gordian knot.

Sincere belief in the doctrine that gender identity is the determinative facet of sex as a multifaceted phenomenon strikes me as a perfectly good reason to find that question difficult.

Try saying what YOU believe first, then move on try trying to describe what you think others believe. Otherwise people will continue to be confused about what you’re really arguing.

I believe we need to have an accurate characterization of the fundamental claims made by those who are sincerely advocating for the sorts of reforms mentioned upthread, e.g. gender identity sorting for restrooms and locker rooms in public schools.

 

[d4m10n]

However, what happens to articulating their position as well as possible if it turns out to be internally inconsistent?

This is admittedly a recurring problem in these discussions, since all the key terms tend to be defined using all the other key terms. I vaguely recall going through all of this using a glossary of social justice some years ago, and being so frustrated that I didn't even bother to map it out.

That said, if we're going to be charitable in reading material like this, we have to choose interpretations which don't immediately lead to recursion or self-contradiction.

 

[smartcooky]

Let me introduce you to a TRA principle I like to call "fiat self-ID".

Or to paraphrase René Descartes, "Cogito sum ergo sum" (I think I am, therefore I am)

 

[Paul2]

. . . .

That said, if we're going to be charitable in reading material like this, we have to choose interpretations which don't immediately lead to recursion or self-contradiction.

Immediately? Not sure why the temporal element is relevant. If they eventually and necessarily lead to recursion or contradiction, what then?

 

[gabeygoat]

If Transwomen ARE in fact women, should they qualify for affirmative action for women? WMBE business grants and opportunities?

And if they do qualify, how trans do they have to be? Must they have undergone surgery and medicinal therapy for a certain number of years? Or do we simply allow someone to check on a box "transwomen" and they all good?

would you check a box to claim something you're not? especially if it can increase you likelihood to die early? just curious. I've never had much of an inclination to go sniff farts in a bathroom of the "wrong" gender. evidently, there's millions of men out there with the fart-wish willing to risk their lives to do just so.

 

[Roboramma]

would you check a box to claim something you're not? especially if it can increase you likelihood to die early? just curious.

Could you explain what you are referring to here?

 

[smartcooky]

Could you explain what you are referring to here?

gabeygoat is probably taking about this...

https://www.hcplive.com/view/mortality-rate-higher-transgender-people

"A total of 317 (10.8%) transgender women and 44 (2.7%) transgender men died during the duration of the study, which equated to an overall mortality rate of 628 deaths per 100,000 people per year.

In comparison to men in the general Dutch population, the mortality risk was nearly double among transgender women and was nearly triple in comparison to cis women (ratios of 1.8 and 2.8, respectively).

An analysis of the subgroups show transgender women were 2.6 times as likely to die of cardiovascular disease, 3.1 times as likely to die from lung cancer, 8.7 times as likely to die from infection, and 6.1 times as likely to die from non-natural causes as cis women.

The greatest risk for those suffering from cardiovascular disease was heart attacks, which were 3 times higher in transgender women than cis women.

Most likely the starkest difference was the mortality risk from HIV, which was 47.6 times higher for transgender women in comparison to cis women.

Finally, the suicide rate was 6.8 times higher for transgender women."​

 

[Samson]

Something else going on is the increasing alienation of trans women. I doubt it holds for trans men, but this X thread has a dark tone in Germany. There are now 10,000 euro fines for deliberate misgendering, and the overwhelming response seems to be to bin CV's with pronouns, and avoid engaging with trans people at all.

https://twitter.com/conweb67/status/1779050789622723054?t=FdrJ-z3SqNtGq6mBn1jpgQ&s=19

On this basis alone it looks incredibly irresponsible for adults to consider helping children transition. The social cost compounds the medical cost. We have a generation of politicians who have been profoundly misled by the activists. Certainly in New Zealand this is the case.

 

[Roboramma]

gabeygoat is probably taking about this...

https://www.hcplive.com/view/mortality-rate-higher-transgender-people

"A total of 317 (10.8%) transgender women and 44 (2.7%) transgender men died during the duration of the study, which equated to an overall mortality rate of 628 deaths per 100,000 people per year.

In comparison to men in the general Dutch population, the mortality risk was nearly double among transgender women and was nearly triple in comparison to cis women (ratios of 1.8 and 2.8, respectively).

An analysis of the subgroups show transgender women were 2.6 times as likely to die of cardiovascular disease, 3.1 times as likely to die from lung cancer, 8.7 times as likely to die from infection, and 6.1 times as likely to die from non-natural causes as cis women.

The greatest risk for those suffering from cardiovascular disease was heart attacks, which were 3 times higher in transgender women than cis women.

Most likely the starkest difference was the mortality risk from HIV, which was 47.6 times higher for transgender women in comparison to cis women.

Finally, the suicide rate was 6.8 times higher for transgender women."​

Thanks. The correlation clearly seems to be there, but is it "becoming transgender increases mortality risk" or "those who have a proclivity to become transgender already had a higher mortality risk"?

I wouldn't be that surprised if both effects are true, but the latter certainly seems to be. Obviously medical transition caries with it higher mortality risks (at the very least surgical transition does), which would fall under the first category, but for those who don't medically transition I would lean toward the explanation of a selection effect (those who become trans were from a higher risk population), in which case choosing to check the box doesn't change that fact.

 

[smartcooky]

Thanks. The correlation clearly seems to be there, but is it "becoming transgender increases mortality risk" or "those who have a proclivity to become transgender already had a higher mortality risk"?

I wouldn't be that surprised if both effects are true, but the latter certainly seems to be. Obviously medical transition caries with it higher mortality risks (at the very least surgical transition does), which would fall under the first category, but for those who don't medically transition I would lean toward the explanation of a selection effect (those who become trans were from a higher risk population), in which case choosing to check the box doesn't change that fact.

Pumping yourself full of the drugs and hormones needed for transition doesn't seem all that conducive to good health and long life either, if the ongoing problems for former East German athletes as they get older is anything to go by.

https://globalsportmatters.com/heal...oblems-due-to-the-consequences-of-ped-taking/

I take Samson's point that giving drugs such as puberty blockers and hormones (the deleterious, long term side-effects of which are still unknown) to young teenagers, is sheer madness. In doing so, we take an enormous risk that we are likely setting them up for a life of pain, misery and serious health issues years down the line.

 

[Pixel42]

would you check a box to claim something you're not? especially if it can increase you likelihood to die early? just curious. I've never had much of an inclination to go sniff farts in a bathroom of the "wrong" gender. evidently, there's millions of men out there with the fart-wish willing to risk their lives to do just so.

If trans right activists have their way any man will be able to access female safe spaces without any risk whatsoever, let alone to their lives, provided they are willing to state when challenged that they identify as a woman. Which means there will no longer be any such thing as female safe spaces, unless you really think the sort of man who, for example, likes to expose himself to girls on the common would hesitate to take advantage of it.

It's this insistence that the feelings of transwomen obliged to use the spaces designated for their biological sex rather than their perceived gender are more important than the feelings of female rape victims who find themselves standing naked in the women's shower next to someone who could easily be the flasher from the common - or even the man who raped them - which convinces me that transwomen are men. Because, as we all know, the feelings and needs of a man have always, and should always, take priority over the feelings and needs of any number of women. If transwomen were really women they would have a damn sight more consideration for the effect of their demands on other women.

 

[Orphia Nay]

"6.1 times as likely to die from non-natural causes as cis women'

Could that be largely from being assaulted/murdered?

 

[Elaedith]

"6.1 times as likely to die from non-natural causes as cis women'

Could that be largely from being assaulted/murdered?

In the Netherlands? Highly unlikely. I haven't seen statistics from there specifically, but statistics from most Western countries I have seen suggest people who identify as transgender are less likely than average to be murdered.

 

[Orphia Nay]

In the Netherlands? Highly unlikely. I haven't seen statistics from there specifically, but statistics from most Western countries I have seen suggest people who identify as transgender are less likely than average to be murdered.

I found the study, but it doesn't say.

https://transvisie.nl/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/lancet-mortality-transgender.pdf

 

[Orphia Nay]

I found this.

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

"Transgender people are over four times more likely than cisgender people to experience violent victimization, including rape, sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault, according to a new study by the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law.'

 

[Elaedith]

I found this.

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

"Transgender people are over four times more likely than cisgender people to experience violent victimization, including rape, sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault, according to a new study by the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law.'

That study was discussed a while back. I mentioned that the higher rates of 'property victimization' suggest confounds with socio-economic status, although what they mean by this term hasn't been defined.

I don't think it's directly relevant to explaining death rates.

 

[Roboramma]

Pumping yourself full of the drugs and hormones needed for transition doesn't seem all that conducive to good health and long life either, if the ongoing problems for former East German athletes as they get older is anything to go by.

https://globalsportmatters.com/heal...oblems-due-to-the-consequences-of-ped-taking/

I take Samson's point that giving drugs such as puberty blockers and hormones (the deleterious, long term side-effects of which are still unknown) to young teenagers, is sheer madness. In doing so, we take an enormous risk that we are likely setting them up for a life of pain, misery and serious health issues years down the line.

Yep, I completely agree.