Transwomen are not Women - Part 14

[JoeMorgue]

Who claimed they could do it and which post was that?

You.

Now I'm not playing this game with you because you're just gonna go "No I didn't say it I was quoting some study that someone else said" because your entire act, which everyone is now sick of is, is that you aren't capable of actually having an opinion of your own.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I haven't had "Jabba trying to prove immortality using Bayesian Statistics" flashbacks this hard in a while. It's rare we have a discussion where one side's entire shtick is being obtuse.

 

[Hercules56]

The entire point of their legal complaint was to tell people what to do in some specific situation.

Nope; the only thing which determines gender identity (according to the ideology undergirding the complaint) is subjective self-knowledge about one's own sex and gender. In the event that self-knowledge runs against every external indicator, it still trumps them all.

I don't think they could've been much clearer, but here is my own paraphrase:

1) If someone tells you they are female, treat them as such.

2) If someone tells you they are a woman, treat them as such.

3) If someone tells you they are male, treat them as such.

4) If someone tells you they are a man, treat them as such.

That's basically everything they are asking for their client here....

What if they claim to be a woman but dress as a stereotypical man?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Again the simple fact that literally nobody can explain to us what actual, objective factor of "being a woman" a trans-woman has to take on to BE a woman and at this point it's just one big performative act of glibly not answering that question is telling.

What is the difference, REAL difference, between a Cis-man and a Trans-woman? The question can not get more fundamental then that.

 

[d4m10n]

What they are demanding is clear, and that's an end to any meaningful sex segregation.

To be replaced with self-segregation based on self-identification.

But the ideology is still as clear as mud, and by design.

I don't think it's complicated at all, muddy Butlerian tracts notwithstanding. The basic idea is that everyone knows deep down (somehow) whether they belong with the women & girls or with the men & boys in all situations where we choose to segregate these from each other. The ideology isn't picky about how this self-knowledge arises. If you said that your sense of self gradually crystallized after a week-long silent meditation retreat, they'd accept it. If you said that it hit you as an epiphany one random afternoon over a jumbo packet of crisps, they'd accept it. The key in all cases is to prioritize individual self-determination over decisions made by family, community, or society.

 

[d4m10n]

Now I'm not playing this game with you because you're just gonna go "No I didn't say it I was quoting some study that someone else said" because your entire act, which everyone is now sick of is, is that you aren't capable of actually having an opinion of your own.

You're not playing the game because you know full well that you would lose. I have not claimed to be able to explain anything thread relevant "without using the words sex, gender, man, woman, male, female" anywhere in the current thread iteration, and no one else has either.

 

[d4m10n]

What if they claim to be a woman but dress as a stereotypical man?

Treat them based on what they tell you, obviously.

 

[Aber]

To be replaced with self-segregation based on self-identification.

I don't think it's complicated at all, muddy Butlerian tracts notwithstanding. The basic idea is that everyone knows deep down (somehow) whether they belong with the women & girls or with the men & boys in all situations where we choose to segregate these from each other.

Except that this is not a complete solution eg

It ignores non-binary.

It ignores those who claim to have 'boy-days' and 'girl-days'.

 

[d4m10n]

What is the difference, REAL difference, between a Cis-man and a Trans-woman?

One of them believes that they were born in the right body; the other one does not.

 

[Paul2]

The entire point of their legal complaint was to tell people what to do in some specific situation.

Still irrelevant to my point about the text you posted.

Nope; the only thing which determines gender identity (according to the ideology undergirding the complaint) is subjective self-knowledge about one's own sex and gender. In the event that self-knowledge runs against every external indicator, it still trumps them all.

That may well be true, but that's not my issue. My issue is the meaning of item 1 in the text that you posted, and that text says in plain English, given their use of the word "or" that there are two things that determine gender identity: sex or gender (given that sex ≠ gender).

I don't think they could've been much clearer, but here is my own paraphrase:

1) If someone tells you they are female, treat them as such.

2) If someone tells you they are a woman, treat them as such.

3) If someone tells you they are male, treat them as such.

4) If someone tells you they are a man, treat them as such.

That's basically everything they are asking for their client here.

That is not the meaning of item 1 in the text you posted.

My post at #1065 did not reduce sex to "testicles vs. ovaries" but rather used those as examples, which is what "e.g." usually means. The actual ACLU position on those specific features may be found in ¶24 of the original complaint.

It doesn't matter how many factors the ACLU uses from ¶24 - the point is that they include things that are actually objectively determined (chromosomal makeup, hormones, internal and external reproductive organs, secondary sex characteristics) but the ACLU says that sex is determined by self-knowledge.

However, those objective factors, even though they are listed as part of sex by the ACLU, are irrelevant for determining sex, because sex always equals gender identity, which is determined by self-knowledge. So my point about objective or self-knowledge is moot.

Lastly, this whole discussion started with your post that said,

It isn't remotely complicated . . . .

These claims may be true or false but they are fairly straightforward and uncomplicated from where I'm sitting.

Nothing like parsing, say, Judith Butler.

The ACLU text is anything but straightforward, uncomplicated. As evidence, I offer the exchange you and I have had about this, and I rest my case.

 

[d4m10n]

Except that this is not a complete solution eg

It ignores non-binary.

It ignores those who claim to have 'boy-days' and 'girl-days'.

In such situations, we are expected (by gender ideology) to treat people as they ask to be treated on the day. Again, simply remember to elevate self-knowledge and self-determination over other social considerations.

 

[Hercules56]

Except that this is not a complete solution eg

It ignores non-binary.

It ignores those who claim to have 'boy-days' and 'girl-days'.

Is this a real thing?

Trans folk who claim to have boy days and girl days?

Yes, which bathroom and locker room do non-binary folks use? Whichever they decide that week?

 

[Olmstead]

To be replaced with self-segregation based on self-identification.

I don't think it's complicated at all, muddy Butlerian tracts notwithstanding. The basic idea is that everyone knows deep down (somehow) whether they belong with the women & girls or with the men & boys in all situations where we choose to segregate these from each other. The ideology isn't picky about how this self-knowledge arises. If you said that your sense of self gradually crystallized after a week-long silent meditation retreat, they'd accept it. If you said that it hit you as an epiphany one random afternoon over a jumbo packet of crisps, they'd accept it. The key in all cases is to prioritize individual self-determination over decisions made by family, community, or society.

What happens when I walk into a place full of naked transmen who don't look the part, and I'm like, "I don't feel I belong here"?

 

[d4m10n]

It doesn't matter how many factors the ACLU uses from ¶24 - the point is that they include things that are actually objectively determined (chromosomal makeup, hormones, internal and external reproductive organs, secondary sex characteristics) but the ACLU says that sex is determined by self-knowledge.

Only in the (relatively rare) instances when self-knowledge clashes with all the other factors; the vast majority of people look at their own bodies and find the objective factors persuasive.

However, those objective factors, even though they are listed as part of sex by the ACLU, are irrelevant for determining sex, because sex always equals gender identity, which is determined by self-knowledge.

See above.

As evidence, I offer the exchange you and I have had about this, and I rest my case.

ACLU's formulation still strikes me as the simplest statement of the core claims of gender ideology. Possibly there are simpler ones to be had, and if so I'm happy to have a look.

 

[d4m10n]

What happens when I walk into a place full of naked transmen who don't look the part, and I'm like, "I don't feel I belong here"?

Pinch yourself to see if it's a dream.

 

[JoeMorgue]

One of them believes that they were born in the right body; the other one does not.

That is not a valid or meaningful distinction. Try again.

There is not such thing as the "right" body, just the body you were born with.

For the 50th billionth ******* time your genitals don't have a soul.

You can WANT to have been born the other sex, but there is nothing beyond that.

Wanting to be something IS NOT some special kind of actually being it.

Wanting to be something IS NOT some special kind of actually being it.

Wanting to be something IS NOT some special kind of actually being it.

Wanting to be something IS NOT some special kind of actually being it.

 

[Hercules56]

That is not a valid or meaningful distinction. Try again.

There is not such thing as the "right" body, just the body you were born with.

For the 50th billionth ******* time your genitals don't have a soul.

You can WANT to have been born the other sex, but there is nothing beyond that.

Wanting to be something IS NOT some special kind of actually being it.

That is not a accurate. Transwomen believe they are a woman born in the body of a man. Therefore they seek to resolve this problem by changing their body to fit their emotional state.

 

[d4m10n]

That is not a valid or meaningful distinction. Try again.

Happy to try again, just as soon as you dig up where I committed to your censored word challenge.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Happy to try again, just as soon as you dig up where I committed to your censored word challenge.

No. Dude I'm not interesting in talking to you. You ignoring me is not a threat. I'm happy to talk at your nonsense without talking to you.

You're not the victim here and you don't have the moral or augmentative high ground.

 

[JoeMorgue]

That is not a accurate. Transwomen believe they are a woman born in the body of a man. Therefore they seek to resolve this problem by changing their body to fit their emotional state.

I've said before that "I was born this sex, I will know make actual physical and biological changes to my body to be the other sex" makes perfect sense.

We can argue and quibble about whether or not those changes are actually functionally possible, whether or not any amount of surgery and hormone treats really can fully make you the other sex, but at least that acknowledges that sex is biological and that something objective and non-internal has to change.

Really it's the whole "identity" thing where you can just declare yourself the other sex without ever even pretending anything biological is changes that I have an issue with.