Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire part II

[Roboramma]

That might surely cancel out any advantages to be gained on annual road tax calculated by CO2 emissions. So instead you have to pay road tax on any excess car weight even though your emissions are now zero.

I don't see how it could cancel it out. There are two separate externality problems with automobile use, one is emissions, another is wear and tear on public infrastructure. Two separate taxes for two separate problems.

 

[novaphile]

Heh:




Doesn't apply to me. I always score maximum or near maximum on tests of logic.

And you remember this with your perfect memory?

 

[Steve]

Heh:




Doesn't apply to me. I always score maximum or near maximum on tests of logic.

You take a lot of "logic tests" do you? Whatever for? They seem to do you little good.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

This is exactly the weaselly nonsense I'm talking about. You need a bigger and heavier vehicle. And if you buy an EV that meets your needs, it will be heavier than an ICE vehicle that meets your needs.

No, the weaselly nonsense is yours. She said she needed a larger car because 'I need extra boot space for my wheelchair and hoist', nothing about it being heavier because it's electric.

The 2014 Range Rover Sport 3.0 TDV6 involved in the Luton Airport carpark fire had a curb weight of 2115 kg and a 'massive' boot space of 900 liters. The Tesla Model Y has a curb weight of 1984 kg (6% lighter) and boot space of 854 liters (5% less).

In comparison, my old 2011 Nissan Leaf has a curb weight of 1600 kg and boot space of 330 liters. The closest contemporary Nissan gas car was the Qashqai. With a 1.6l diesel engine it weighed 1518 kg and had a boot space of 410 liters.

So my Leaf only weighs ~5% more than the Qashqai. However the boot space is restricted by the battery size.

Battery technology has improved a lot since then. Later model Leafs had longer range and a larger boot with no weight increase. The 2017-2024 Leaf has a kerb weight of 1594 kg and boot space of 405 liters. Range is 70% higher, and the battery has much lower degradation than first generation Leafs.

If everybody does that, the problem for roads and car parks will grow much faster than if everyone keeps buying ICEs. It's a serious tradeoff that should be taken seriously

'Everybody' has already been doing that with ICE cars.

American Cars Are Developing a Serious Weight Problem

The average weight of a new vehicle sold in the US last year was a whopping 4,329 pounds.

That’s over 1,000 pounds higher than the average in 1980...

This wave of vehicle bloat began in the 1980s, thanks in part to new safety regulations. Airbags, crash-test ratings and more robust structures packed on vehicular pounds, while better construction and stronger materials reduced engineers’ need to worry about weight. Efficiency became less of a priority.

Consumer preferences changed, too. In 2018, demand for large SUVs and pickups overtook sedans and hatchbacks in the US. While some trucks got lighter in the past decade, the overall fleet average kept climbing as more suburban families traded their Toyota Corollas and Honda Accords for Ford F-150s and Chevy Silverados.

The only problem with EVs right now is people wanting stupidly large batteries to assuage their range anxiety. But as my Leaf example shows, batteries are getting better. In 6 years Nissan added 70% more range with a size decrease and no weight increase. They are also getting safer, cheaper, and lasting longer. BYD just announced that their latest batteries will have a 1 million mile warranty.

Lithium Phosphate batteries are much harder to set on fire than Li-ion. If that Range Rover had been a modern EV this disaster might not have happened! Rover have a fully electric Range Rover planned for next year.

 

[Foster Zygote]

You take a lot of "logic tests" do you? Whatever for? They seem to do you little good.

About five years ago I had an exchange on YouTube with an Apollo denier who, while badly losing the argument, claimed to have an IQ of "almost 200". After a bit of probing, it turned out he'd taken one of those click-bait "IQ tests" in a pop-up window. Now those "tests" typically tell those who complete them that they have an IQ of around 130 because the designers want people to be proud enough to tell their friends so maybe they'll take it too, because it's really just there to lure people into seeing ads. One writer who looked into the matter found that when he'd deliberately answered every question wrong, it still said he had an IQ of 115. But I still wondered how this guy came up with "almost 200". He eventually admitted that he hadn't finished the "long ass test" (they're usually about 20 - 25 questions) and had, somehow, extrapolated that he would have scored around 200 based on his running total, because, of course, actual IQ tests have running totals.

Based on the quality of her arguments, I doubt there's much, if any, scientific validity to the "logic tests" Vixen has taken. You'd think that someone who'd scored so well in any sort of valid tests of reasoning ability would understand that hearsay from someone she doesn't know, acquired from some place she can't remember, about an anonymous source who hasn't even been demonstrated to exist, doesn't even remotely qualify as supporting evidence.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Based on the quality of her arguments, I doubt there's much, if any, scientific validity to the "logic tests" Vixen has taken. You'd think that someone who'd scored so well in any sort of valid tests of reasoning ability would understand that hearsay from someone she doesn't know, acquired from some place she can't remember, about an anonymous source who hasn't even been demonstrated to exist, doesn't even remotely qualify as supporting evidence.

"Man, Woman, Person, Camera, TV"

 

[Steve]

"Man, Woman, Person, Camera, TV"

Now I know why the claimed "maximum" on logic tests seemed familiar.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... You'd think that someone who'd scored so well in any sort of valid tests of reasoning ability would understand that hearsay from someone she doesn't know, acquired from some place she can't remember, about an anonymous source who hasn't even been demonstrated to exist, doesn't even remotely qualify as supporting evidence.

Or, just to remind ourselves, she might recognise that even if every detail of her claimed recollection were true and accurate, the witness described would simply not have been in any position to witness the thing they allegedly claimed to be commenting on.

 

[catsmate]

So are you claiming you know better than this:


Axios

Sigh. Yet again you use anything you can google in a desperate and pathetic attempt to support your nonsense.

The claim, articulated by right-wing hacks like Greg Knight and Matthew Lynn, have been using this nonsense to push the anti-EV agenda, directly and through 'useful idiots' for some time. Without of course addressing that there are far heavier vehicles on the roads, many of them, and that battery and materials technology are improving and reducing EV weight. Further the popularity of SUV is contributing far more to average passenger vehicle weight increase.

This is actually mentioned in the Axios piece you quoted, though for some reason you omitted to include this: the increase in average vehicle weight from this cause (>400kg, rather more than the 200kg attributable to battery/electric systems).

And as for your suggestion that I'm "claiming you know better than this", yes actually I do know more than Borney who's a buisness journalist with no scientific training (like someone else....). I possess a B.Sc., M.Sc, M.Phys. and Ph.D. in the sciences, in addition to my other degrees and I work in technology fields. I'm a member of the Battery 2030 group, the IEEE (MIEE), the IoP (MInstP and CPhys) and other professional groupings.

Neither Borney nor yourself possess anything like my knowledge, training and experience in the sciences.

Wrt road wear, the last UKian study into road wear from personal vehicles (Edinburgh 2022, you can get it through the usual channels) stated:

[road wear is] overwhelmingly caused by large vehicles – buses, heavy goods vehicles

And that road wear from personal vehicles, including cars and motorcycles is

so low that this immaterial

 

[JayUtah]

Now I know why the claimed "maximum" on logic tests seemed familiar.

Who takes "logic tests" routinely enough to have established a trend of "near maximum" performances? What even is a "logic test?" Aside from the clickbait online tests, the only specific test of logical reasoning I know of is the LSAT. If you're scoring "near maximum" on it, there's no reason to take it again.

 

[catsmate]

If people were happy with a range big enough for the 15-minute city they could probably make them lighter.

What are you? Some sort of commie-liberal-socialist? Next you'll be demanding proper housing or a living wage and we'll be back to the days of Ivor Biggun.

 

[catsmate]

The issue with EVs' being heavier isn't that they wear out infrastructure significantly faster; it's that they wear out their brakes and tires significantly faster. Future improvements in battery technology are expected to mitigate this problem.

And hopefully we'll finally Abolish the Tyranny of the Axle. Individual motors on each wheel have great promise for improvements in handling and stability.
Though I expect by then we'll have eliminated the other major problem with current vehicles: the Driver.

 

[catsmate]

When we impose 15-minute cities nobody needs a car, full stop. Full employment will be enjoyed by the proliferation of messenger boys, while rickshaw taxis and sedan chairs are zero-emission.

And delivery drones retrieval/repair people.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... Wrt road wear, the last UKian study into road wear from personal vehicles (Edinburgh 2022, you can get it through the usual channels) stated:

[road wear is] overwhelmingly caused by large vehicles – buses, heavy goods vehicles

Long ago, Mrs by the Hedge worked on a TV science news item about some innovation intended to reduce road wear caused by truck tyres. She told me the problem of wear was proportional to the fourth power of the axle load; a ten ton truck caused 10,000 times the wear of a one ton car. That so astounded me I had to go look it up to confirm it was really true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_power_law

 

[catsmate]

The big elephant in the room is why did the Luton Airport Car Park collapse? The Liverpool ECHO one didn't, it simply suffered severe spalling, such that it was unsafe for anyone to walk across.

Oh look, another fringe reset and goalpost move. You must feel you're losing the argument again.

You have been blaming electric vehicles for the Luton Airport fire. Allow me to quote CleanTechnica:

Let’s put some basic facts on the table. The fire department identified the car which started the blaze. There’s video of it. It was a diesel Range Rover, one of the Land Rover group of cars. While there is a diesel battery-electric hybrid option for some of the Range Rover groups, there’s zero evidence that it was a hybrid.

In fact, a front view video of the car shows its license plate, and UK’s Ministry of Transport makes it clear that the car was a 2014 diesel Range Rover Sport, license plate E10EFL. Used car site Car Check confirms this, showing it has tested emissions of 194 g/km, which puts it at the top end of the emissions range for non-hybrid diesel light vehicles. Not only is there no evidence that it was hybrid, there is strong evidence it wasn’t hybrid.

 

[catsmate]

OK. This webpage is wrong, then?

https://jackandjillofalltires.com/i...tates there,consider changing to winter tires.

You may be surprised to learn that there are multiple legal jurisdictions in USAia. There are no Federal level laws. There are State level laws.

Sigh.

 

[catsmate]

Compare and contrast to the flame in the CCTV car park clip.

Why bother? We already know that the initial fire was in a diesel vehicle.

 

[catsmate]

Have you any idea of the type of construction used in the two buildings and what effect differences might have on their behaviour in a fire?

Rhetorical question.

Those of familiar with CROSS do.

 

[JayUtah]

Neither Borney nor yourself possess anything like my knowledge, training and experience in the sciences.

Vixen seems stuck in the mindset that everyone she talks to here is just "some bloke on the Internet." Conversely, anyone who lives at the other side of a link, or who has a byline (no matter how inconsequential) is automatically some incontrovertible authority. Yes, many of the people participating in threads with Vixen are indeed more knowledgeable and qualified than Vixen's sources. No, we don't have YouTube channels (at least I don't). It's hard to explain to people who believe that's a credential why it isn't.

 

[GlennB]

Why bother? We already know that the initial fire was in a diesel vehicle.

Also, why bother linking to the characteristic crimson flame of lithium (and its compounds) when the fire was clearly yellow/orange? It's baffling.