Problem on "Free Energy" sites.

[DRBUZZ0]

There's a lot of sites which talk about "free energy" and "perpetual motion"

they generally do not talk about it in the sense of solar energy, but in the sense of energy from nothing. I'm not going to go into it too deeply, but it's rather hard for me to believe in "free energy" in the sense that these sites advertise it. They often mention modern physics such as quantum theory which says a particle can enter an energetic state with no apparent stimulation or bizzar things which happen around black holes or near the speed of light.

Of course, they fail to mention that none of these energy-from-nothing schemes have been demonstrated on earth in a macroscopic and usable way.

But I've noticed something else about this site. They often advertise a variety of different energy devices, which don't seem to exactly fit.

For example. A site will advertise devices such as: "Small box taps unlimited energy from cosmos and can power your house" along with "High effeciency hydrogen gerator" and "Gas miliage booster" and "Advanced Hydrogen Storage Device"

My problem is this: Often one of the devices they claim to have completely eliminates the need for the others.

If you have a little box which produces unlimitted energy in a usable form, then why bother with hydrogen? Why use an internal combustion engine? or a super-effecient applience?

If you have a true free-energy device, it eliminates any need for energy storage devices and you would never have to worry about effeciency.


Something just doesn't fit here....

-Steve

 

[eri]

Yep. They don't work. Period.

I'd be willing to bet they didn't know what they were talking about with the quantum mechanics or astrophysics either - I've taken four courses in QM and can't speak about it with any authority.

 

[Jimbo07]

bizzar things which happen around black holes or near the speed of light.

You talking about where virtual particles are formed near an event horizon where one is drawn into the black hole, and the resulting energy gain promotes them from virtual to real particles? You still don't get something for nothing. The black hole would then be radiating away. I lurnt this in a buk. That is, I don't know the math, and probably have it bass ackwards

From any sort of real-world engineering perspective, however, something for nothing is garbage.

BTW, Eri has more QM than I do! The only thing I can say about it with authority is that there is nothing that convinces me that QM implies woo. But, I'm probably wrong about that too...

 

[DRBUZZ0]

I wasn't talking about anything in perticular.

I was just making to refrence to how the psuedo-science on "free energy" sites often claims that because some aspect of modern physics describes the possibility of unexplained energy in special conditions. (the Kashmir effect, the repulsive force originally included in Einstein's Theory of Relativity, Various Quantum effects ect)

Basically saying something like "Because theoretical physics allows for strange things that violate the laws of classical mechanics, I was able to build a 'free energy' machine out of some magnets, a few parts from Radio Shack and the alternator from my brother in law's old truck"

-Steve

 

[Bone_Vulture]

Something just doesn't fit here....

An ideal client for these sites usually doesn't make the observations made in this thread.

 

[JamesM]

the Kashmir effect

The effect of exposing two parallel plates in a vacuum to the music of Led Zeppelin.

In my experiments, I found they preferred "When the Levee Breaks".

 

[Hindmost]

There's a lot of sites which talk about "free energy" and "perpetual motion"

If you have a true free-energy device, it eliminates any need for energy storage devices and you would never have to worry about effeciency.


Something just doesn't fit here....

-Steve

Perpetual motion will never fit. It just violates too many well known laws of physics. Just picture a ball being dropped and bouncing higher and higher will each bounce--it can't happen.

These scam artists always try to use complex language because they know a lot of people don't have a science education. Ask people what quantum mechanics is--very few will know and very few will have taken enough classes to do the math. In a more perfect internet and world, the people who try to sell such items would be guilty of fraud and prosecuted.

glenn.

 

[Bone_Vulture]

Perpetual motion will never fit. It just violates too many well known laws of physics. Just picture a ball being dropped and bouncing higher and higher will each bounce--it can't happen.

That'd be free energy. I'd assume that for perpetual motion it'd be enough that the ball would always bounce back to the same height.

 

[Hindmost]

That'd be free energy. I'd assume that for perpetual motion it'd be enough that the ball would always bounce back to the same height.

True for just perpetual motion machines--a bit of energy would have to be created to overcome friction of the air--kind of nit picking. I actually do a demo in my class with a pendulum--hold a pendulum up to my nose and let it swing and see that it doesn't hit me in the nose again. It is hard not to flinch. However, the scam artists are always touting "free energy." The machines I looked at indicated more energy on the output side than the input. It would have to create energy somehow...let me get my credit card out! I suppose if the scam artists can create energy, they can also create matter...since they are the same thing. Might as well just create a tank of gas.

glenn

 

[ChristineR]

Don't these guys usually claim to be extracting energy from the air or something? Probably related to Chi, the substance that carries thought waves, and the aura field.

 

[Pidge]

I actually do a demo in my class with a pendulum--hold a pendulum up to my nose and let it swing and see that it doesn't hit me in the nose again. It is hard not to flinch.

In the 1st Year physics course at the Univeristy of Canterbury, Christchruch, NZ, a lecturer demonstrates that with a 10m pendulm, with a concrete block as the mass, released with his back against a wall and the block just touching his chin.

Apparently one year a lecture gave the block a (small) push instead of just releasing it...

 

[kleinjahr]

Heinlein said it best, TANSTAAFL.

Pidge, did he meet up with Mort and Binky?

 

[vcrepair]

Here is latest mistakes made by "free energy inventor"
Joseph Newman

from: josephnewman.com

January 2006
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
To the World:
I, Joseph Newman, have repeatedly stated that mass means NOTHING if it does not have a MECHANICAL UNDERSTANDING . The equation for horsepower of rotating motor shaft so PROVES - "ft. lbs X rpm divided by 5252 = HP". Yet that equation does not designate the TIME of said horsepower. Constant of mass - rpm implies horsepower per minute.

James Watt in the late 1700s who established the HP as a unit of measurement specifically stated that such a measurement was dependent upon TIME: "33,000 lbs 1 ft. per MINUTE."
Accordingly, the HP of a rotating shaft must be measured in HP per minute of rotating shaft or, in shorthand, HP of rotating shaft per SECOND. ["550 lbs 1 ft. per second."]

I show you now a simple MECHANICAL explanation of HP per second of TRUTH: Take a shaft and attach it to the center of 1 ft radius [2 ft. diameter] pulley. Now imagine that you rotate the shaft of one full rotation of 360 degrees in one SECOND. Then "you" have lifted 550 lbs 6.283 ft in one second! ["1 ft. radius gives 6.283 ft in circumference"] That is, 6.283 HP per second! Per rotation of shaft! Multiply by [60 rpm] 60 SECONDS that is 376.98 HP per MINUTE!
Said above is WRONG! Vague conventional HP equation gives only 6.283 HP per MINUTE!

The TRUTH of MECHANICAL explanation given by me has been applied to rotating shaft of 400 lb magnetic rotary of my revolutionary motor that will shock the world in the immediate future. IT WILL PROVE WHO IS THE MASTER OF MY REVOLUTIONARY ENERGY INVENTION!

Fact: Conventional equation must be changed to the following:
HP of rotating shaft of motor:
HP = ft lbs X RPM divided by 5252 X 60 = HP per MINUTE.
Happy New Year to the people of the Earth.
Love,
Joseph Westley Newman
**************************
VCREPAIR

Joe Newman has updated his website josephnewman.com
that claims "free energy". Joe has been claiming to have a
"free energy" machine for over 20 years, but has
never proven it to experts. Joe does demonstrations
on occassion, but never proves anything.

Joe claims he is "the world's greatest scientist", blah, blah...

Joe makes silly mistakes trying to describe what
power and energy are. It wouldn't be so bad if
he just made simple mistake, but Joe makes claims
that everone else is wrong.

That is common among many "free energy inventors",
they feel that all accepted science is wrong
including definitions of POWER and ENERGY.

"Horsepower per minute" shows that Joe has no
concept of what POWER or ENERGY/TIME and
ENERGY which is total energy or work.

Horsepower * minute could be used, but that is
NOT standard term, it would be 33,000 foot-lbs
of energy or 746 watt * 60 second = 44760 Watt-seconds
or Joules.

Obviously a motor can run for hours and provide many
horsepower * hours or Kilowatt-hours but that is NOT
how motors are rated. Motors are rated for how much
POWER they can produce.
The total ammount of time the motor runs doesn't
change the POWER rating. (Some motors are only
for intermittent use, but we won't bother with that)

A motor with more POWER can provide more mechanical ENERGY
FASTER than a smaller motor. But a small motor could
lift 550 pounds, it would just take longer.

Maybe that is why Joe hasn't been able to PROVE
his "Energy Machine" works, after 20 years.

POWER is how fast work gets done. ENERGY or
WORK is total work done. You pay electric bill
for Kilowatts * hours or Kilowatt-hour (- is hyphen)
1000 watts used for 1 hour = 1 KWh or 100 watts
used for 10 hours = 1 KWh.

1 HP = 550 ft-lbs/sec = 33,000 ft-lbs/min = 746 watts
or 746 Newton-meters/second.

Torque in ft-lbs * RPM/5252 = HP
That is based on 1 HP = 33,000 ft-lbs/minute
since torque * 2 pi radians = 6.283 that is
Torque * RPM * 2pi (6.283)/33,000 ft-lb/sec
That simplifies to 2pi(6.283)/33,000 = 1/5252

So to say HP per minute is like 550 ft-lb/sec per second

The term would apply to the change in HP over time.

If a 2 foot diameter or 1 foot radius pulley has a rope
with 550 pounds (249.5 Kg) then the torque would be
550 pounds * 1 foot = 550 ft-lbs (746 Newton-meters)

If the 550 lb weight is lifted 1 foot per second, that
would be 1 HP or 746 Newton meters.

2 pi(6.28318) radians is one revolution or 360 degrees.

So Revolutions Per Minute * 2pi (6.283)/60 = radians/sec
or RPM * 0.1047 = radians/second.

There is some confusion between foot * pounds of torque
and foot * pounds of WORK or ENERGY.
To lift a pound one foot is 1 ft-lb of work.
But a tangental force of 1 pound at 1 foot radius
is a "foot-lb" of torque. Torque or force by
itself is NOT ENERGY or WORK. Only when there
is FORCE * DISTANCE do you have ENERGY.

In metric system Newton is force and meter is
distance.

1 foot-lb = 1.356 Newton-meters.

 

[DRBUZZ0]

My invention can produce 10 volt-pounds per teaspoon-megabyte/decibell.

 

[Bone_Vulture]

Another brilliant quote from fstdt.com...

"Oh, and I have a hypothesis about the fire breathing dragons (assuming they existed). Somebody (somewhere around the 1960’s I think) came up with a car that runs on water. The oil companies paid this person money so that he wouldn’t sell these cars (and I think they also tried to kill him to prevent him from selling these cars). Basically, how this car works is it separates the hydrogen from the oxygen, burns the hydrogen and uses the oxygen (because fire needs oxygen to burn). This is not only much faster (and more powerful) than regular gas cars, but it’s also much more fuel - efficient. Right now there are companies that have torches that use water as fuel. These torches are much hotter and much more fuel – efficient than gas torches. It’s possible that dragons took water, separated the hydrogen from the oxygen, burned the hydrogen and used the oxygen (because fire needs oxygen to burn)."

 

[bruto]

Another brilliant quote from fstdt.com...

Right now there are companies that have torches that use water as fuel.

Let me guess. The secret was suppressed by.....Union Carbide!

 

[Serenity]

My invention can produce 10 volt-pounds per teaspoon-megabyte/decibell.

I'm jealous, your invention makes you eligible to join the Joseph Newman WebRing.

 

[DRBUZZ0]

Yeah...I'm very proud.

By any chance, Serenity...do you happen to be female? Do you happen to be single?

(just wondering...)

 

[SixSixSix]

Anyone see the Mythbusters episode on this? Not bad; obviously not comprehensive, but the boys did try to make three different devices (one of which wasn't really free energy, just a very inefficient solar device).

 

[Serenity]

Yeah...I'm very proud.

By any chance, Serenity...do you happen to be female? Do you happen to be single?

(just wondering...)

You've outed me!
Hey, is there any chance Joseph Newman is related in some way to Joseph Smith, founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Maybe the golden plates are the source for all this free energy.