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Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire part II

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I'm not sure if the discussion on Winter tires can become even worse, but let's just point out that Norway, Sweden and Iceland are at the top when it comes to EV car adoption. Apparently a requirement to change tires twice a year is not as big a challenge for Norwegians or Swedes as it is for Finns.

Then of course you don't wait until the snow actually arrives to change your tires - the rubber mixture is different in summer vs winter tires so you change based on the average temperature. Summer tires are too hard when it's cold. Winter tires too soft when it's worm. Knowledge about average season changes, and the weather forecast gives you ample warning to switch.

We still have winter tires on our two EVs, since snow is expected tomorrow, but I'll probably switch them in a week or so.
 
I'm not sure if the discussion on Winter tires can become even worse, but let's just point out that Norway, Sweden and Iceland are at the top when it comes to EV car adoption. Apparently a requirement to change tires twice a year is not as big a challenge for Norwegians or Swedes as it is for Finns.

Then of course you don't wait until the snow actually arrives to change your tires - the rubber mixture is different in summer vs winter tires so you change based on the average temperature. Summer tires are too hard when it's cold. Winter tires too soft when it's worm. Knowledge about average season changes, and the weather forecast gives you ample warning to switch.

We still have winter tires on our two EVs, since snow is expected tomorrow, but I'll probably switch them in a week or so.
FWIW I put the summer wheels back on my car three weeks ago and have an appointment for tomorrow morning to change the wheels on Madame's car. I always stagger the timings and once again I'm glad I did because when I was up in the mountains the middle of last week the conditions were awful and even with 4WD things were a bit slippery offroad.

Not that we know anything about wintry conditions in Switzerland, of course.
 
There is no law in the USA that requires winter tyres...
None of that makes your claim that the U.S. has only occasional snows, that last a couple of days at most, any less wrong. Despite a lack of laws mandating snow tire use, they are quite common in the northern U.S. Other people make use of all season tires designed to work on snow as well as pavement. I had an uncle who had snow chains hanging in his garage because he lived in rural Michigan and had a plow attachment for his Ford F-250. Most towns and cities in the snow belt have snow plows with salt spreaders to help clear the roads. When I first moved from the Great Lakes region to South Carolina, I was amazed by the number of old cars, like Volkswagen Beetles, that were still on the roads here, because up north the copious road salt use means that old cars tend to rust out quite badly. In rural and/or mountainous regions, they don't need a snow tire law because people just know they need them when the time is right.

Secondly, if your car has lights on 'automatic' they will switch off when you switch off the engine or the start button.
And? What if you don't have the lights on 'automatic' (or don't have that feature), or you don't switch off the engine? You're still wrong about the lights being on precluding an electrical fault in the vehicle in question. An actual investigator would look at the light evidence and understand how little that indicates, but you want to play armchair detective so you try to make it mean something that you can "discern for yourself".

If the electrics have caught fire, then one would expect all lights to fuse as automatically so lights wouldn't normally still be showing if the driver has switched off the engine or start button. Unless of course the lights were on manually but even then, the electric fire is likely to short circuit.
All you're doing is demonstrating your ignorance of how a car's electrical harness works. This is classic Dunning-Kruger effect. Remember way back at the start of the thread when you said you don't know anything about cars? You should try to remember that now instead of pretending you can hold down a discussion of the technical aspects of electrical circuits.

Thirdly, an EV can burn to temperatures up to 2,000ºC, concrete spalls at temperatures over 500ºC. Diesel and tyres do not tend to ignite until the temperature is >500ºC. Fact: the concrete at Luton Airport car park didn't just spall, the rebars deformed and the concrete seems to have melted, or at least fallen through because of lack of support. This did not happen at the Liverpool ECHO car park fire.
So an EV can burn at temperatures in the same range as butane or propane. Wow! Scarry!

Concrete spalling is not the same as melting.

Why don't all EV fires melt the pavement under them? It seems like that should be a defining feature of EV fires.

Why didn't the video you linked to show molten metal and concrete dripping from a hole in the ceiling? Why did it show a sudden collapse of a span, consistent with the structural failure of steel support brackets caused by the level above being engulfed in flames from numerous burning vehicles?

75 liters of gasoline contains over four times the specific energy of a 450 kg Li-ion battery. The flammable solvents contained in a battery are far less than the fuel typically carried in an ICE car, and they don't burn any worse, even when all the other flammable materials in a car are factored in. What you think an EV battery fire is compared to other vehicle fires is based on your own ignorance and the ignorance of the conspiracy theorists you're credulously accepting as authorities.

Fourthly, yes a firefighter will be trained to know of the different types of fire. For example, at the recent fire at Moscow's Crocus Concert Hall, it was noted that the 'grenades' thrown by the gunmen 'looked like government issue phosphorous' one due to the white light flares. And as demonstrated by chemistry teachers all over the world.
Oh look! A squirrel!

That's not what I was saying, and I'm sure you know it. You've said that a firefighter at the Luton garage incident said that it looked like an EV fire, but there is zero evidence of this having happened. You couldn't even find the source that you read it from, and even then that was hearsay, so you have no idea whether it's true or not. That makes it not a fact. I'm surprised someone as scientifically qualified as yourself would think that was evidence.

It is weird how addicted people are to not knowing or wanting to wait until the authorities tell them what they should surely be able to discern for themselves.
I know you think you're "discerning it for yourself" because you're too clever to be fooled. But the truth is that you are too ignorant of even the basic physics of the matter to discern anything about it for yourself. That's why you're upset - why you start referring to those you're arguing with using negative language like "addicted". You're trying really hard to sound like the smartest person in the room, but for some reason you insist on doing it in a forum where a lot of people are much more scientifically educated than you are. Or is that the whole point? Is that part of what you really want?

Every genuinely smart person I've ever met has been capable of admitting when they're wrong about something.
 
In case anyone didn't get it, Vixen is claiming we are all being big meanies to her because of her position on the interminable Amanda Knox threads. No, really.

Vixen, how many people in your multitude of conspiracy garbage current events threads that were mysteriously moved to conspiracies posted in those threads? I did but only after being exposed to you elsewhere. LondonJohn did I think...anyone else?

To make it clear Vixen, no, you aren't being treated badly because of your views on Knox. You're not being treated badly at all.

I should note that I have not read any of the Knox thread(s) nor the MS Estonia thread(s).

Must've been in a couple of others that I was mean, like that nonsense about post codes or why so much land mass is in the northern hemisphere or why someone born in Suffolk is a cockney or whether Durham School is anything more than a cash cow for rich kids too thick to benefit from the good local state schools or...Being a little bit sarcastic and mocking in this one...Only a smidge by my standards.
 
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As of today, it has never been confirmed that the car as pictured by the mass media is the culprit. If it was the culprit, then what can be seen in the picture closely resembles a Jaguar Land Rover vehicle of some sort and the flames being bright crimson and literally jetting outwards, with white and grey smoke and from its lower left position in the vehicle certainly points to a lithium-ion battery fire and not to the black smoke fire one would expect from diesel or tyres. In addition, the fire was in an early stage and if a diesel or petrol fire could have easily been put out by firefighters within ten minutes.

We have not been told the make, year and model of the vehicle concerned, as has been the case in the Liverpool fire so one can't help wondering if the whole coyness is to do with protecting the Tata brand and its recent £1,200bn [iirc] grant (=it doesn't have to ever pay it back even if it goes bust, as at the Tata steelworks in Port Talbot) to set up a million-ha lithium car battery factory in the UK.

Okay, so as of today you reckon the following:
  1. The initial vehicle has been confirmed to be a diesel, neither EV nor hybrid.
  2. The pictured vehicle clearly displays a Lithium-Ion battery fire.
  3. Both the pictured vehicle and the initial vehicle were in the driving lane, not parking spaces.
  4. The driver of the initial vehicle attempted to put out the fire with an extinguisher and the pictured vehicle has an extinguisher next to it.
  5. Despite (3) and (4), the two vehicles are not the same (because (1) and (2) require they are different).
Does that sound about right? I may have made errors in (3) and (4), so let me know if I've confused some facts.
 
There is no law in the USA that requires winter tyres and in fact looking at a map here, the 'winter tyre belt' is mostly in Canada. So yes, latitude is a key variable. Yes, the east coast especially around NY gets horrendous snow falls but you don't have to bother with needing to change your tyres. Others pointed out sparsely populated mountainous regions with ski resorts - and with few roads - and some even referred to France and Australia, when we were specifically talking about the UK and the USA.

Secondly, if your car has lights on 'automatic' they will switch off when you switch off the engine or the start button. If the electrics have caught fire, then one would expect all lights to fuse as automatically so lights wouldn't normally still be showing if the driver has switched off the engine or start button. Unless of course the lights were on manually but even then, the electric fire is likely to short circuit.

Thirdly, an EV can burn to temperatures up to 2,000ºC, concrete spalls at temperatures over 500ºC. Diesel and tyres do not tend to ignite until the temperature is >500ºC. Fact: the concrete at Luton Airport car park didn't just spall, the rebars deformed and the concrete seems to have melted, or at least fallen through because of lack of support. This did not happen at the Liverpool ECHO car park fire.


Fourthly, yes a firefighter will be trained to know of the different types of fire. For example, at the recent fire at Moscow's Crocus Concert Hall, it was noted that the 'grenades' thrown by the gunmen 'looked like government issue phosphorous' one due to the white light flares. And as demonstrated by chemistry teachers all over the world.


It is weird how addicted people are to not knowing or wanting to wait until the authorities tell them what they should surely be able to discern for themselves.

No laws that apply to the entire USA... cause that'd be silly (what Miami drivers would have to use them after Nov1?!?). There are many local and laws within the USA on if/when you must use snow tires or chains.

https://lacledechain.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/State-Chain-Laws.pdf

Montana, for example, makes note of if and when certain highway conditions shall require the use of chains or studs, and then its illegal on that stretch not to use them.

Confidently incorrect as usual.

ETA: and what the hell... your own link https://jackandjillofalltires.com/i...tates there,consider changing to winter tires. has a huge part of the USA in the "winter tyre belt".
 
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Further to the Gatwick Airport car park fire some weeks ago, which destroyed at least eleven vehicles. If you recall the cause was given as 'accidental ignition' with no further details given and we have heard nothing since. The Gatwick north terminal car park is merely an open field one-level car park.

See here at 9:12, this guy has had it confirmed the fire was indeed caused by a Tesla EV and at 9:44 he claims he's been informed by a 'fire marshall' that 'word has come from above' to 'embargo' any news of electric car fires, see 9:44, and that this embargo has extended to New York with a reference to the New York Post, 10:44.



https://youtu.be/O5jrI2zdZ0s?si=ZNbSGvtWziDvIKIC

The question is, 'Why?'

Isn't the first question, "Is what this guy says true?"
 
From what I could see, this only relates to where a road is otherwise closed and a lighted sign informs drivers what they must do if that lighted sign is on (i.e., chain up the wheels or change to friction tyres because of snow hazard). It's hardly all season.

Neither is the Finnish law all season. You showed us a page. Drivers must use such tires during that time of year when conditions require.
 
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No laws that apply to the entire USA... cause that'd be silly (what Miami drivers would have to use them after Nov1?!?). There are many local and laws within the USA on if/when you must use snow tires or chains.

https://lacledechain.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/State-Chain-Laws.pdf

Montana, for example, makes note of if and when certain highway conditions shall require the use of chains or studs, and then its illegal on that stretch not to use them.

Confidently incorrect as usual.

ETA: and what the hell... your own link https://jackandjillofalltires.com/i...tates there,consider changing to winter tires. has a huge part of the USA in the "winter tyre belt".

It's almost like someone doesn't understand the separation between state and federal laws in a federal system, like that which operates in the USA...
 
Okay, so as of today you reckon the following:
  1. The initial vehicle has been confirmed to be a diesel, neither EV nor hybrid.
  2. The pictured vehicle clearly displays a Lithium-Ion battery fire.
  3. Both the pictured vehicle and the initial vehicle were in the driving lane, not parking spaces.
  4. The driver of the initial vehicle attempted to put out the fire with an extinguisher and the pictured vehicle has an extinguisher next to it.
  5. Despite (3) and (4), the two vehicles are not the same (because (1) and (2) require they are different).
Does that sound about right? I may have made errors in (3) and (4), so let me know if I've confused some facts.

There was another vehicle which, coincidentally, caught fire at the same time.
 
No, the question is "Why are you posting this laughable drivel?".

Seriously - "Some bloke said to me ..." ???

Said bloke being a notorious anti EV utuber that has absolutely no interest in clickbait material to drive traffic to his channel for $$$$
Oh wait...
yes, yes he is indeed interested in those $$$$
 
No laws that apply to the entire USA... cause that'd be silly (what Miami drivers would have to use them after Nov1?!?). There are many local and laws within the USA on if/when you must use snow tires or chains.

Nearly every law regulating vehicular traffic, even on federally funded highways, is a state or local law in the United States. There is no national
traffic code. States are responsible for maintaining the interstate freeway segments that lie within their state, and for setting operating regulations. This includes traction requirements for slippery conditions.

Montana, for example, makes note of if and when certain highway conditions shall require the use of chains or studs, and then its illegal on that stretch not to use them.

The stretches of highway in Utah that have seasonal traction requirements have checkpoints where Highway Patrol stops you and verifies your compliance. And no, they are not merely desolate, uninhabited stretches of road.
 
Nearly every law regulating vehicular traffic, even on federally funded highways, is a state or local law in the United States. There is no national
traffic code. States are responsible for maintaining the interstate freeway segments that lie within their state, and for setting operating regulations. This includes traction requirements for slippery conditions.



The stretches of highway in Utah that have seasonal traction requirements have checkpoints where Highway Patrol stops you and verifies your compliance. And no, they are not merely desolate, uninhabited stretches of road.

Commercial vehicles, when crossing state lines is the only exception I know of to that.
 
There was another vehicle which, coincidentally, caught fire at the same time.

That would be well and good, except I believe that the press release refers to THE initial vehicle and so if there were two initial vehicles, they would be lying.

For a moment, I thought I'd overlooked a possibility, but now I see I'm good.
 
That would be well and good, except I believe that the press release refers to THE initial vehicle and so if there were two initial vehicles, they would be lying.

For a moment, I thought I'd overlooked a possibility, but now I see I'm good.


It could be that two vehicles initially caught fire at the same time, but the fire in the EV went out before it could set anything else on fire.
 
There is no law in the USA that requires winter tyres and in fact looking at a map here, the 'winter tyre belt' is mostly in Canada. So yes, latitude is a key variable. Yes, the east coast especially around NY gets horrendous snow falls but you don't have to bother with needing to change your tyres. Others pointed out sparsely populated mountainous regions with ski resorts - and with few roads - and some even referred to France and Australia, when we were specifically talking about the UK and the USA.

Secondly, if your car has lights on 'automatic' they will switch off when you switch off the engine or the start button. If the electrics have caught fire, then one would expect all lights to fuse as automatically so lights wouldn't normally still be showing if the driver has switched off the engine or start button. Unless of course the lights were on manually but even then, the electric fire is likely to short circuit.

Thirdly, an EV can burn to temperatures up to 2,000ºC, concrete spalls at temperatures over 500ºC. Diesel and tyres do not tend to ignite until the temperature is >500ºC. Fact: the concrete at Luton Airport car park didn't just spall, the rebars deformed and the concrete seems to have melted, or at least fallen through because of lack of support. This did not happen at the Liverpool ECHO car park fire.


Fourthly, yes a firefighter will be trained to know of the different types of fire. For example, at the recent fire at Moscow's Crocus Concert Hall, it was noted that the 'grenades' thrown by the gunmen 'looked like government issue phosphorous' one due to the white light flares. And as demonstrated by chemistry teachers all over the world.


It is weird how addicted people are to not knowing or wanting to wait until the authorities tell them what they should surely be able to discern for themselves.

None of the concrete melted.


It collapsed because the steel in the structure lost strength.

It's n othing to do with any batteries involved in the fire.


You hav been told and shown that diesel, plastic and petrol has higher energy content than a battery.
 
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