Merged US may close Cuba Embassy over 'health attacks'

[dann]

I listened (the visuals are entirely irrelevant) to 60 Minutes' rerun of old 'syndrome' episodes again just to make sure that I hadn't missed a seconds-long appearance of a skeptic, but no.

My disorganized notes. Some of the names may be spelled wrong. For instance, the subtitles read Mark Lindsey:
'Syndrome' sufferers
Guangzhou: Mark Lenzi (+ family)
Guangzhou: Katherine Warner/Werner (trade officer with Commerce Dep, + dog & mother, Oct 2017: "We hadn't heard about what happened in Cuba. I mean, there were headlines in the news about hearing loss and attacks to our diplomats, but we didn't know the details.") So they had heard, as I assume the rest of the diplomatic and intelligence communities also had after Aug/Sep 2017.

A 'hostile country', but not Cuba, not Russia: Mike Bech, former NSA employee (Parkinson's, alleged AHI 1996)

Shanghai: Robin & Britt Garfield (Uni Penn study, Robin trade officer with Commerce Dep, + children, toddler fell several times, not recognized as AHI; hit again in Philadelphia, and then again after going from residence in Philly to stay at a hotel, children "thrashing" in bed, distinct sound over children's beds)

Washington: Olivia Troye (at the White House, stairs, "inside the security perimeter", later incidents when walking to her car)
Washington: Anonymous senior member of National Security Council (same place as Troye, headaches other symptoms, two other medical conditions, Walter Reed)
Washington: Miles Taylor (Deputy Chief of Staff, then Chief of Staff, Dep. of Homeland Security, April '18 + 5 weeks later, at home, house on Capitol Hill, white van. Mentions somebody else, anonymous, also in Trump admin.)

Havana: anonymous (2016, + family, disabled at 36, loss of vision) "legally blind in one eye" ... "It's not the eye, it's the wiring ... the eye function as itself is completely correct and appropriate. It's the signal that comes out the back of the eye into the brain is where the problems are. And no one really knows how to fix that".
To me, it's the wiring sounds like:

Conversion disorder begins with some stressor, trauma, or psychological distress. Usually the physical symptoms of the syndrome affect the senses or movement. Common symptoms include blindness, partial or total paralysis, inability to speak, deafness, numbness, difficulty swallowing, incontinence, balance problems, seizures, tremors, and difficulty walking.
Conversion disorder: Signs and symptoms (Wiki)

Experts
Tina Shetty (Lenzy's neurologist)
David Relman (microbiologist)
James Benford (physicist, microwave expert)
Not one single reference to experts who dismiss the idea that the 'syndrome' was caused by a microwave attack.

Politicians
Mike Pompeo
Jeanne Shaheen
John Bolton (mentions London cases and another case in Washington)

Washington official
William Burns

At one point, a recording of crickets is played, 30:36, but:

"and then this loud sound just absolutely filled my room."
This former official, whom we agreed not to name, recorded the sound at his home in Havana. Before we play it, understand that the sound does not cause the injury. It is a byproduct like the sound of a gun, which is not what does the harm. Here is what he recorded: [cricket recording]"

Then Relman reappears and talks about the sound 'dissipating' when people hearing it leave the location, as I have mentioned several times.

In the last segment, children with nosebleed are mentioned.

Nosebleeds are not usually a sign of anything serious. They're common, particularly in children, and most can be easily treated at home.
Nosebleed (NHS UK)

 

[dann]

“No one I know - NO ONE - believes #Cuba was responsible for 2016 incidents,” Zaid wrote. “Havana was just location. Just like w/China, Russia, Colombia, Australia, England, Poland, Austria, Vietnam & list goes on. This issue has significantly damaged our relations w/Cuba for no good reason.”
Report: 'Adversary' Responsible for Havana Syndrome Attacks (SpyTalk, Mar 29, 2024)

I agree with Mark Zaid that Cuba never brain zapped any U.S. spyplomats. But I don't think anybody did. However, some people do actually believe that Fidel Castro was the evil adversary with a ray gun, but maybe Zaid isn't familiar with Jon Lee Anderson. See post 2,158. Was Zaid never interviewed for the VICE podcast? I don't remember.

A quotation from James Giordano in the same article is even more interesting:

“So what we've said with regard to the Havana syndrome was very simple, and I'll go to my death saying this: Something happened to the people in Havana. It doesn't surprise me that the NIH report says that we don't find any structural indications of damage to their brain. Neither did we.”
(...)
“Did we ever use the word weapon?” he says. “Nope. I never used the word weapon in a report—that was something that was superimposed upon things that I put in my initial report.”
(...)
“My answer to that question [i.e.'is it therefore possible that individuals in Cuba…were exposed to this type of technology [i.e. LRADs or 'a microwave device'] somehow,'] was not only is that possible, that is highly probable,” Girodano declared.

And he probably didn't use the word weapon in a report, I guess, but he has certainly been implying it a lot. I think that's also the reason why Giordano and others keep repeating that "something happened to the people in Havana." It's the one thing everybody can agree on, but it is obvious that the word something is meant to imply that what happened was a DEW attack and not a group of CIA operators who got scared by crickets and spread their anxiety to the rest of the U.S. embassy.

And without any actual evidence whatsoever, Mark Zaid is quite open about his claim that "They're attacking our people, and they have violated the age-old rule about not harming fellow intel officers, even on the other side. And they're doing it not just to our intel officers, but to their family members, including children and pets.“
Which reminds me of Michael at the top of the previous page!

They are?! Really?!!!

 

[Orphia Nay]

Havana Syndrome is now trending on Twitter/X.

Mostly shares of the 60 minutes tweets, almost all believing that crap.

 

[carlosy]

BTW, it's a combined investigation between
- 60 Minutes
- Der Spiegel (german magazine) and
- The Insider (The Insider is an independent online newspaper specializing in investigative journalism, fact-checking and political analytics. It was founded in 2013 by Roman Dobrokhotov, a Russian journalist and the owner of the newspaper. The newspaper is known for exposing fake news in Russian media.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Insider_(website)

 

[Orphia Nay]

BTW, it's a combined investigation between
- 60 Minutes
- Der Spiegel (german magazine) and
- The Insider (The Insider is an independent online newspaper specializing in investigative journalism, fact-checking and political analytics. It was founded in 2013 by Roman Dobrokhotov, a Russian journalist and the owner of the newspaper. The newspaper is known for exposing fake news in Russian media.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Insider_(website)

And spreading fake news?

“On 23 July 2021 Russia’s Ministry of Justice added The Insider to its list [ru] of "foreign mass media performing the functions of a foreign agent".”

An axe to grind?

Wow, it’s pretty bad when woo gets so political. Dangerous ground.

 

[carlosy]

Are you citing Russian Ministry of Justice for your argument?

 

[dann]

Wow, it’s pretty bad when woo gets so political. Dangerous ground.

If accepted policy, it would be close to a declaration of war, which is no doubt what some of these people desire.

Efforts continue to investigate brain injuries suffered by U.S. officials. This is the fourth 60 Minutes Havana Syndrome report and, for the first time, there’s evidence of who might be responsible.
Havana Syndrome evidence suggests who may be responsible for mysterious brain injuries (60 Minutes on YouTube, April 1, 2024 - 26:50)

Includes a transcript!

Havana Syndrome mystery continues as a lead military investigator says bar for proof was set impossibly high (CBS News, March 31, 2024 - 26:50 min.)

Why shouldn't you just be believed when you claim that Russians attack you with DEWs, right?! Why do these compassionless people be skeptical of the stories about our suffering?
Any bar for proof is an affront to the victims!

And there is more at the CBS site:
Russian role in attack on American official? ... (6:16)
5-year investigation into Havana Syndrome (6:19)
But the last one is two years old. CBS is reusing all the old stuff. The intro to the 26:50 video is also based on old stuff.

It is clear that they have absolutely nothing but conjecture based mainly on stories about what people imagine happened to them. I can't believe that a guy like Mark Zaid is not aware that nothing of this would stand up in court.

I'll return to this, but for now, two things:

1: Their main guy, the one who is pining for a war with Russia and claims that everything is an attack, has a very vested interest in the whole thing.
I think that he's the one I quoted a few days ago:

Scott Pelley: "Are we being attacked?"
Man: "My personal opinion? Yes!"

Now he is JAQing off, as if he had been Tucker Carlson's understudy:

Greg Edgreen: Can we secure America? Are these massive counterintelligence failures? Can we protect American soil and our people on American soil? Are we being attacked? And if we're being attacked, is that an act of war?

After what he learned in his classified investigation, Greg Edgreen retired from the Army to start a company to help the victims. He hopes to channel government contracts into treatment programs.

And there won't be many government contracts into treatment programs if cases of MPI are snipped in the bud before they bloom into full-blown FNDs, will there?!
Scott Pelley and CBS 60 Minutes are helping him make sure that there'll be no snipping!

2: But just like in 60 Minutes' first takes on the 'syndrome' in 2019 and 2022, a major part of the new episode consists of the 'syndrome' sufferers telling their stories about what the sensations they experienced. It is obvious that Scott Pelley and 60 Minutes count on the cumulative effect of those stories.
I like this one, in particular:

Scott Pelley: Do you believe that you were attacked?
Anonymous: Absolutely.
She asked us to withhold her name for her safety. She's the wife of a Justice Department official who was with the embassy in Tbilisi. She's a nurse with a Ph.D. in anesthesiology. On Oct. 7, 2021, she says that she was in her laundry room when she was blindsided by a sound.
Anonymous: As I'm reaching into the dryer-- I am completely consumed by a piercing sound that I can only describe as when you listen to a movie and the main character is also consumed by the sound after a bomb goes off. That is similar to the sound that I heard. And it just pierced my ears, came in my left side, felt like it came through the window, into my left ear. I immediately felt fullness in my head, and just a piercing headache. And when I realized that I needed to get out of the laundry room, I left the room, and went into our bedroom next door, and projectile vomited in our bathroom

It isn't different from the other story, but notice Scott Pelley's manipulative way of interviewing her: Before we hear her story, we are presented with the conclusion he is going for: the attack narrative.
But what is most interesting is when he is laying it on really thick for effect: There was a car (not a white van!) outside the gate, and she took a photo of it. And we get to see an actual photo of an actual car!!! There was also a man, but for some reason she didn't take a photo of him, apparently.

But Scott Pelley shows her a photo of the imaginary Russian culprit who was in town (Tblisi) at the same time, Albert Averyanov*, and she says she recognizes him. But what I find interesting is mainly her reaction to the photo:

Scott Pelley: We sent you a photograph of Albert Averyanov. And this is the picture that we sent you.
Anonymous: You did.
Scott Pelley: And I wonder if that looks anything like the man you saw outside your home.
Anonymous: It absolutely does. And when I received this photo, I had a visceral reaction. It made me feel sick. I cannot absolutely say for certainty that it is this man, but I can tell you that even to this day, looking at him makes me feel that same visceral reaction. And I can absolutely say that this looks like the man that I saw in the street.

a) Notice the two times "absolutely say".
b) Notice her reaction to the photo! Isn't that supposed to be something that happens when you are being targeted with whatever kind of beam is supposed to cause 'Havana syndrome'? How can that all of a sudden be caused by a photo? Is it possible that mere anxiety can cause people to have visceral sensations?
It obviously is!

As for her recognition of the man, if there's one thing I've learned from American crime flicks, it's that you don't confront a witness with the suspect or a photo of the suspect as the first thing you do. You hand them of whole album (nowadays I assume it's been digitalized) of possible bad guys, or you line up a bunch of seven or eight people, one of them the suspect, and let the witness point him out. Or not.
Not in this case! Scott Pelley is going for confirmation like the biassed cop in those crime flicks.

Another thing is even more comical:

We have also learned of a phone call that was intercepted nearby. A man says in Russian, "Is it supposed to have blinking green lights?" and "Should I leave it on all night." We have no idea what he was talking about but, the next day, the incidents began.

Those questions are ones I myself might have asked if I had been on the phone with someone the last time I was installing a new router!
We have no idea what he was talking about, but it's a damn fine piece of conjecture, so we'll use it and pretend that it is evidence that the syndrome is an attack and Russians are the attackers!

The whole show is a nothingburger, but it will no doubt rile up anybody who is already a believer.
I recommend that you watch it and read the transcript!
And then watch it again.


*There are already articles like this: Russia's secret intelligence unit responsible for spreading 'Havana Syndrome' in US, Canada: Report (WION, April 1, 2024)

 

[dann]

10% Bartholomew et Al, and a 5 minute wrap-up of “you decide”.

As I expected, no Bartholomew et al and no "you decide" wrap-up.
When you want to wage war, there's no leaving it up to anybody but the war mongers.

I assume we'll soon hear from Robert Bartholomew, but never on 60 Minutes.
In the meantime, here's his old article after the 60 Minutes' 'syndrome' episode in February '22:
60 Minutes Whips Up “Havana Syndrome” Hysteria, Airs Sensational Segment on White House “Attacks” (Skeptic, March 5, 2022)

 

[dann]

BTW, it's a combined investigation between
- 60 Minutes
- Der Spiegel (german magazine) and
- The Insider (The Insider is an independent online newspaper specializing in investigative journalism, fact-checking and political analytics. It was founded in 2013 by Roman Dobrokhotov, a Russian journalist and the owner of the newspaper. The newspaper is known for exposing fake news in Russian media.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Insider_(website)

Yes, it sounds extremely investigative and analytical:

Tbilisi
He was tall, certainly taller than Joy’s neighbors and the Georgians she’d come to know in eight months of living in Dighomi, an upscale residential community in Tbilisi. He was young and thin and blonde and well-dressed — as if headed to the theater, or perhaps a wedding.

Minutes earlier on October 7, 2021, Joy, an American nurse and the wife of a U.S. Embassy official, had been taking her laundry out of the dryer when she was completely consumed by an acute ringing sound that reminded her of what someone in the movies experiences after a bomb has gone off.
Unraveling Havana Syndrome: New evidence links the GRU's assassination Unit 29155 to mysterious attacks on Americans, at home and abroad (The Insider, April 1, 2024)

Oh man, I'm so turned on already. But tell us what the American nurse looks like, what she's wearing, and how she is slowly peeling it off to replace it with the items from the dryer, still emitting the sweet scent of fabric softener, when she notices the tall, young, thin, blonde, well-dressed man watching her.

I can't wait to read the rest of this piece of investigative, analytical reporting!

 

[dann]

And in Der Spiegel: Havana-Syndrom: Setzen russische Agenten Mikrowellenwaffen gegen US-Diplomaten ein?* (Spiegel, April 1, 2024)

In cases like this, theprestige usually refers to Betteridge's law of headlines (Wiki).
I don't have access to the article in Der Spiegel, but I think it's safe to say that the law is true in this case.

Betteridge's law of headlines is an adage that states: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no." It is named after Ian Betteridge, a British technology journalist who wrote about it in 2009, although the principle is much older. It is based on the assumption that if the publishers were confident that the answer was yes, they would have presented it as an assertion; by presenting it as a question, they are not accountable for whether it is correct or not. The adage does not apply to questions that are more open-ended than strict yes–no questions.

In other words, Der Spiegel's JAQ title corresponds to 60 Minutes' use of may and might.


*I forgot to translate the title: Havana Syndrome: Do Russian agents use microwave weapons agains U.S. diplomats?

 

[dann]

Three things from the short 60 Minutes video, 5-year Havana Syndrome investigation finds new evidence of who might be responsible (CBS News, April 1, 2024 - 6:19):

1: Mark Lenzi

Lenzi told 60 Minutes he believed he was targeted because of his work, using top-secret equipment to analyze electronic threats to diplomatic missions.
"This was a directed standoff attack against my apartment…it was a weapon," he told Scott Pelley. "I believe it's RF, radio frequency energy, in the microwave range."

This is not just any diplomat or CIA agent. He is professionally "using top-secret equipment to analyze electronic threats."
How can he not know with certainty that he has been attacked with "RF, radio frequency energy, in the microwave range"??? Why does he have to resort to believing?!

2: Christo Grozev

He tracked down an email that he says is for services provided to the Russian government by a member of Unit 29155 for "potential capabilities of non-lethal acoustic weapons."
"Which told us that this particular unit had been engaged with somewhere, somehow, empirical tests of a directed energy unit," he told Scott Pelley.

It is no surprise that Russia is engaged with "empirical tests of a directed energy unit." So is the USA. We all know about the ferret (+ primate) study at Wayne State U, and there must have been hundreds of others. LRAD already exists and has been employed. Even some commercial container ships like the Danish Maersk Alabama have had them for some time: Hemmeligt våben jager pirater væk/Secret weapon chases pirates away (Videnskab.dk, Nov 24, 2010).
Does that mean that we should 'connect the dots' any time a Russian diplomat or spy comes down with a headache or tinnitus and assume that the USA (or Maersk*) is responsible?

3: Rey and Zill de Granados, CBS producers

"Our job is to ask questions and share information that we've learned that may counter the narrative that's out there…if you say there's no evidence of a foreign adversary involved, then what are we looking at?"

That is a very good question, but why don't they ask people in the know instead of presenting it as an open question to their viewers, JAQ-style. Ask William Burns again. Ask some of those experts who have much better answers than than the ones you did actually ask. Ask Baloh, Bartholomew, Valdés-Sosa, Della Sala, Douglas Fields, Kevin Fu ...
Ask somebody whom you haven't cherry-picked to give you the answer you desire.


*Maersk is the Danish shipping company that chartered the container ship that caused the Baltimore bridge to collapse - in case anybody feels like adding to the conspiracy theories that are already flooding social media: 'How could a ship make a whole bridge collapse? Did they use their secret sound cannon?'

 

[TragicMonkey]

If Russia had weapons like this wouldn't they be using them a lot more? In, say, Ukraine?

 

[dann]

That is always a good question, and my answer is: I don't see why they wouldn't.
The closest 60 Minutes get to the 'syndrome' in Ukraine is this:

Tonight, we're reporting for the first time, an incident at last year's NATO summit in Lithuania—a meeting that focused largely on Russia's invasion of Ukraine and was attended by President Biden. Multiple sources tell us that a senior official of the Department of Defense was struck by the symptoms and sought medical treatment.
Havana Syndrome mystery continues as a lead military investigator says bar for proof was set impossibly high (CBS News, Mar 31, 2024)

60 Minutes' expert, the one with the very vested interest in the 'syndrome', is then asked to comment:

We told Greg Edgreen what we'd learned.
Greg Edgreen: It tells me that there are no barriers on what Moscow will do, on who they will attack, and that if we don't face this head on, the problem is going to get worse.

That's it! There is no other information to back up the idea that the guy in Vilnius was the victim of a DEW attack, which is astonishing when you consider the list of symptoms:

FAQ: What are the symptoms of AHI?
Symptoms can vary but include:

* Dizziness (unsteadiness or vertigo)
* Emotional distress
* Headache
* Hearing loss
* Insomnia
* Mild confusion
* Nausea
* Slowed thinking
Anomalous Health Incidents (Tricare.mil)

I find it hard to believe that only one senior official came down with any of those symptoms at the NATO summit in Vilnius - with or without microwaves!
Alex Jones or Glenn Beck couldn't have done a better job of 'connecting the dots' than Scott Pelley!

By the way, there is also an apparent Russian agent, Vitalii Kovalev, the guy who was pulled over for speeding in Florida. He appears to have been drafted for the war in Ukraine as punishment for something, but it is never made clear what exactly he is supposed to have to do with the 'syndrome', but he may have been "killed at the front in Ukraine" where he "may" been sent for effing up his alleged mission in the USA, but again: What that's supposed to have to do with the 'syndrome' remains unclear.

When I connect the dots I get the picture of a sloppy investigation and a nonsensical 'Havana syndrome' report from 60 Minutes.

I don't know if any of this is made clearer in the article about the nurse and the tall, well-dressed young man mentioned above, and I'll probably procrastinate and not read it till tomorrow. If I push myself too much, I fear that I may end up with dizziness (unsteadiness or vertigo), emotional distress, headache, hearing loss (already got that one!), insomnia, mild severe confusion, nausea, slowed thinking.

 

[carlosy]

If Russia had weapons like this wouldn't they be using them a lot more? In, say, Ukraine?

Over what distance could such a weapon work effectively? Might not be feasible in combat situation of conventional war.

 

[carlosy]

1: Their main guy, the one who is pining for a war with Russia and claims that everything is an attack, has a very vested interest in the whole thing.

That's just your opinion.
You sound like you are trying to fabricate a CT out of another CT.
And I'm not buying eihter.

Russia is already attacking the West anyways. It's a cyber war, an intelligence war, a media war. And in Ukraine is a full blown conventional war going on, but the only thing that's missing is NATO soldiers.

It's not as if the West is coexisting in peace with Russia, everything's fine and some war hungry deep state folks in the US government and media trying to incite a war (what kind of war anyways, a conventional?) against Russia by creating a nonsensical story about some mystical russian weapon.

 

[Orphia Nay]

And spreading fake news?

“On 23 July 2021 Russia’s Ministry of Justice added The Insider to its list [ru] of "foreign mass media performing the functions of a foreign agent".”

An axe to grind?

Wow, it’s pretty bad when woo gets so political. Dangerous ground.

Are you citing Russian Ministry of Justice for your argument?

Wut? I was quoting your broken link.

“On 23 July 2021 Russia’s Ministry of Justice added The Insider to its list [ru] of "foreign mass media performing the functions of a foreign agent". On 14 December 2021 a court in Moscow ordered the outlet to pay 1 million rubles. On 15 July 2022, the publication was banned in Russia alongside Bellingcat. Following this restriction, any Russian citizen who aids Bellingcat or The Insider may face criminal prosecution; they would also be restricted from citing their publications. The office of the Prosecutor-General of Russia said that they were banned due to "posing a threat to the security of the Russian Federation".“

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Insider_(website)

To make it more obvious, The Insider could feel very scared of Russia - so scared that they are likely to imagine it doing unlikely things like Havana Syndrome.

Russia does horrific, terrible things, but the science as discussed in this thread makes Havana Syndrome unlikely. Do you believe otherwise?

 

[dann]

That's just your opinion.
You sound like you are trying to fabricate a CT out of another CT.
And I'm not buying eihter.

On the one hand, everything I write is 'just my opinion'. Much the same way that your post is just your opinion.
I tend to focus on arguments, on the actual words used by people, and I quote them to prove my point.
May I recommend that you do the same?!

Russia is already attacking the West anyways. It's a cyber war, an intelligence war, a media war. And in Ukraine is a full blown conventional war going on, but the only thing that's missing is NATO soldiers.

Unlike you, I am on anybody's side in the semi-war going on between Russia and the West. I don't like any of them. You seem to think that the war is one-sided: Russia attacking the West. And in many ways, the 'Havana syndrome' narrative is a fitting illustration of this ideology: Putin attacking innocent, defenseless U.S. diplomats.

It's not as if the West is coexisting in peace with Russia, everything's fine and some war hungry deep state folks in the US government and media trying to incite a war (what kind of war anyways, a conventional?) against Russia by creating a nonsensical story about some mystical russian weapon.

This thread is not about the new lukewarm war. It's about the 'Havana syndrome'. There are other threads about the Russia-versus-Ukraine/NATO war.
The 'Havana syndrome' is a nonsensical story. Those of us who have been following it know.
People have different motives for promoting the idea that the 'syndrome' was caused by an attack:
1) At first, CIA agents who were in Cuba to use the Cuban thaw to recruit people to gather information and if possible create dissent were aware that their activities were being watched and obstructed by Cuban counterintelligence. Already anxious and fearing repercussions, they got scared by the sound of crickets and spread the idea that the cricket sound constituted an attack to their colleagues.

2) U.S. doctors convinced them that they were the victims of a brain-damaging directed-energy attack. At first, due to the sound heard and recorded by the U.S. officials, it was claimed to be a kind of ultra-sound attack, probably inspired by what people already knew about LRAD, but when almost all experts dismissed the idea, and even more so when analysis of the recordings showed that the sound was most likely from the Indies short-tailed crickets, the idea about a sonic attack was more or less abandoned in favor of the microwave/Frey-effect idea.

3a) The syndrome was immediately used for political purposes as part of Trump's crusade against Cuba and everything bearing the stamp of Obama. The Cuban thaw was cancelled, diplomatic relations severed, and the blockade exacerbated.
3b) Other factions were more interested in using the 'syndrome' as an argument against Russia. Others blamed China. Who was blamed for what had nothing whatsoever to do with any evidence of hostile perpetrators wielding sonic and/or microwave weapons against CIA operatives or U.S. diplomats. No such evidence had been found, and - as the new episode in the 60 Minutes' 'syndrome' saga shows - it still hasn't.
3c) TIs are as scared of the list of symptoms as the original Havana cohort of 'syndrome' sufferers had been, but they can't really be described as a political faction. I get the impression that most of them blame the 'Deep State' or something similar, CIA, FBI etc. Others lean towards seeing Putin as the culprit, others again think it's Xi.

4) Blinken and Burns actually threatened Putin, telling him that if Russia was the alleged perpetrator of the 'syndrome', it would have serious repercussions. I have no idea if this was interpreted by Putin as a sign that NATO wanted to go to war with Russia or not.

The only consistent opposition to the "nonsensical story about some mystical russian weapon" (or Cuban, Chinese, whatever) has been 1) individual scientists and researchers, some of whom I already mentioned earlier today: Baloh, Bartholomew, Valdés-Sosa, Della Sala, Douglas Fields, Kevin Fu (and I'll add Bradley Roth), and, of course, 2) Cuba, the only organized albeit fairly impotent force that has been consistently on the side of science against nonsense, as it has also been in its pandemic response. Again, very much unlike the powers that rule the world.

If I am on anybody's side in this question, it's on Cuba's. I haven't seen Cuba waver one bit. Russia, for instance, at one point tried to come up with an alternative narrative: that the 'syndrome' war actually real, an attack, but USA/CIA was the perpetrator. Cuba never bought into that idea. Cubans were aware, almost from the beginning, that the 'syndrome' was psychogenic + iatrogenic and stuck with that.

And Cuba was (the irony!) proven right by the combined U.S. intelligence organizations when the ODNI report was released one year ago. And again recently by the two NIH studies.
Cuba is on the side of science, in this question as in all others. And Cuba suffers the consequences of its stance. Anti-science is a very powerful enemy. Standing up for science comes at a cost.

 

[dann]

60 Minutes Wants War

1: Their main guy, the one who is pining for a war with Russia and claims that everything is an attack, has a very vested interest in the whole thing.

That's just your opinion.
You sound like you are trying to fabricate a CT out of another CT.
And I'm not buying eihter.

U.S. officials in Vietnam were injured in a Havana Syndrome style attack ahead of Vice President Kamala Harris's 2021 trip to Hanoi.
(...)
At the time, the U.S. embassy in Hanoi announced that a possible (!) "anomalous health incident," the federal government's term for so-called Havana Syndrome attacks, was slowing Harris's arrival in Vietnam.
(...)
While U.S. officials cannot confirm what causes it, experts 60 Minutes has spoken with believe (!) the incidents involve targeted sonic or microwave attacks.
60 Minutes has been investigating these attacks for more than five years.
(...)
As 60 Minutes investigated the Hanoi incident, a source suggested that the Vietnamese themselves had been given some kind of technology that may have caused the "Havana Syndrome" attack.
(...)
Based on his research, Grozev said he suspects (!) Russia is sending weapons technology like this, which may be used in Havana Syndrome attacks, to foreign governments.
(...)
He [Edgreen] told 60 Minutes he also believes (!) Russians were involved in the 2021 attack in Vietnam.
(...)
While running the military investigation into anomalous health incidents, Edgreen said the Pentagon supported his investigation into whether (!) Russia was behind the attacks.
(...)
Once you admit that this happened, it is a Pandora['s] box," Grozev said. "It requires you to confront the fact that you have your arch enemy acting against your own people, your own intelligence workers, on your territory, and this is nothing other than a declaration of war."
Havana Syndrome in Vietnam: Possible (!) Russian role in attack on Americans, according to new evidence (CBS News, March 31, 2024 - 6:09 min.)

Notice how many times the 'syndrome' is referred to as attacks. Sometimes there are reservations, "possible", "believes", "suspects", "may". Or quotations are used: people being interviewed calling it a "fact." At other times, it's simply referred to as "these attacks" without any reservations or modifiers. They are referred to as "attacks" not alleged attacks.

Notice also this, which is supposed to constitute evidence that the Kamala Harris-related 'attacks' in Vietnam were more than alleged:

According to Grozev, a document within the email shows that Russian intelligence lobbied for and received permission from President Vladimir Putin to provide exclusive technology to Vietnamese security services. Among the list of recommended technologies to be shared were "LRAD acoustic emitters" and "short-wave equipment for scanning the human body."

The point is that anything can be seen as evidence that U.S. personnel has been attacked: sound cannons, microwaves (Mark Lenzi's favorite explanation) or even short-wave scanning equipment, the idea in that case being that scanning had gone bad but it would still be categorized as an attack, I assume.

That the USA has similar equipment and has been using it since (at least) the 1990s doesn't change anything. In the hands of the enemy, it's a sure sign that the USA is up against pure evil.

The idea that "short-wave equipment for scanning the human body" might be used to protect Kamala Harris from assassination attempts during her visit to Vietnam or that "LRAD acoustic emitters" might be used to disperse people protesting against the visit just isn't nearly as appealing as the attack narrative.
Besides, ordinary Vietnamese can't possibly have any reason to bear a grudge or to want to protest against U.S. representatives on official visits to Vietnam, right?

 

[carlosy]

Wut? I was quoting your broken link.

Yeah, and by adding two questions:

And spreading fake news?
An axe to grind?

On the one hand, everything I write is 'just my opinion'. Much the same way that your post is just your opinion.

Your opinions here tend to come across as facts...

Their main guy, the one who is pining for a war with Russia...

I tend to focus on arguments, on the actual words used by people, and I quote them to prove my point.
May I recommend that you do the same?!

So far, I just added the information that the latest story was a cooperation between 60 Minutes, Der Spiegel and The Insider, not just 60 Minutes.
I don't even have a point here to prove, since I have no final opinion about if this weapon and such attacks are real or not. Same as I'm not convinced that this is just some mass hysteria or people making stuff up for a war with Russia, which is already going on anyways. And yes, Russia/Putin is the aggressor.

But since this thread is basically a one-man-show, I'll leave you to it.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

If accepted policy, it would be close to a declaration of war, which is no doubt what some of these people desire.


Includes a transcript!

Havana Syndrome mystery continues as a lead military investigator says bar for proof was set impossibly high (CBS News, March 31, 2024 - 26:50 min.)

Why shouldn't you just be believed when you claim that Russians attack you with DEWs, right?! Why do these compassionless people be skeptical of the stories about our suffering?
Any bar for proof is an affront to the victims!

And there is more at the CBS site:
Russian role in attack on American official? ... (6:16)
5-year investigation into Havana Syndrome (6:19)
But the last one is two years old. CBS is reusing all the old stuff. The intro to the 26:50 video is also based on old stuff.

It is clear that they have absolutely nothing but conjecture based mainly on stories about what people imagine happened to them. I can't believe that a guy like Mark Zaid is not aware that nothing of this would stand up in court.

I'll return to this, but for now, two things:

1: Their main guy, the one who is pining for a war with Russia and claims that everything is an attack, has a very vested interest in the whole thing.
I think that he's the one I quoted a few days ago:

Now he is JAQing off, as if he had been Tucker Carlson's understudy:



And there won't be many government contracts into treatment programs if cases of MPI are snipped in the bud before they bloom into full-blown FNDs, will there?!
Scott Pelley and CBS 60 Minutes are helping him make sure that there'll be no snipping!

2: But just like in 60 Minutes' first takes on the 'syndrome' in 2019 and 2022, a major part of the new episode consists of the 'syndrome' sufferers telling their stories about what the sensations they experienced. It is obvious that Scott Pelley and 60 Minutes count on the cumulative effect of those stories.
I like this one, in particular:



It isn't different from the other story, but notice Scott Pelley's manipulative way of interviewing her: Before we hear her story, we are presented with the conclusion he is going for: the attack narrative.
But what is most interesting is when he is laying it on really thick for effect: There was a car (not a white van!) outside the gate, and she took a photo of it. And we get to see an actual photo of an actual car!!! There was also a man, but for some reason she didn't take a photo of him, apparently.

But Scott Pelley shows her a photo of the imaginary Russian culprit who was in town (Tblisi) at the same time, Albert Averyanov*, and she says she recognizes him. But what I find interesting is mainly her reaction to the photo:

a) Notice the two times "absolutely say".
b) Notice her reaction to the photo! Isn't that supposed to be something that happens when you are being targeted with whatever kind of beam is supposed to cause 'Havana syndrome'? How can that all of a sudden be caused by a photo? Is it possible that mere anxiety can cause people to have visceral sensations?
It obviously is!

As for her recognition of the man, if there's one thing I've learned from American crime flicks, it's that you don't confront a witness with the suspect or a photo of the suspect as the first thing you do. You hand them of whole album (nowadays I assume it's been digitalized) of possible bad guys, or you line up a bunch of seven or eight people, one of them the suspect, and let the witness point him out. Or not.
Not in this case! Scott Pelley is going for confirmation like the biassed cop in those crime flicks.

Another thing is even more comical:



Those questions are ones I myself might have asked if I had been on the phone with someone the last time I was installing a new router!
We have no idea what he was talking about, but it's a damn fine piece of conjecture, so we'll use it and pretend that it is evidence that the syndrome is an attack and Russians are the attackers!

The whole show is a nothingburger, but it will no doubt rile up anybody who is already a believer.
I recommend that you watch it and read the transcript!
And then watch it again.


*There are already articles like this: Russia's secret intelligence unit responsible for spreading 'Havana Syndrome' in US, Canada: Report (WION, April 1, 2024)

I wonder what the "impossibly high bar" was? "Have you any evidence at all?" probably.