Cont: Luton Airport Car Park Fire part II

[Vixen]

No Vixen. Nothing changed. The only thing that happened is the same information got presented using a variety of wordings, some of which were unintentionally slightly ambiguous. You want to imagine the slight ambiguity was actually deliberate and intended to deceive. The rest of us think that's ridiculous for reasons already sufficiently belaboured.

A later inserted sentence means everything. Nuance. Nuuuu-ance.

If "some of which were unintentionally slightly ambiguous", then Jenny of Communications should be sacked for putting a spin on it or a training gap brought to the attention of Beds F&RS HR department as being insufficiently capable of understanding what Hopkinson actually said.

 

[Vixen]

Also, if Vixen is correct, shouldn't this firefighter be investigated and charged under the official secrets act?

Now you know why he didn't give his name.

 

[Vixen]

OK, let's forget about identifying the firefighter. Are you able to identify the newspaper or journalist who reported it, or have they been made to sign the Official Secrets Act as well?

'Fraid not. There are thirty pages of archives.

 

[Vixen]

First, as I mentioned when you claimed to be a scientist in one of the iterations of the Estonia thread, I'm a former accountant^*, and accountants are not scientists. That even goes for accountants who have degrees that say "business science" in the title.

Second, you completely mangled the quotation from the Science Council's website, and you failed to include a link. Here is the complete quotation:

Our definition of a scientist

A scientist is someone who systematically gathers and uses research and evidence, to make hypotheses and test them, to gain and share understanding and knowledge.

A scientist can be further defined by:

• how they go about this, for instance by use of statistics (statisticians) or data (data scientists).
• what they’re seeking understanding of, for instance the elements in the universe (chemists, geologists etc), or the stars in the sky (astronomers).
• where they apply their science, for instance in the food industry (food scientist).

However all scientists are united by their relentless curiosity and systematic approach to assuaging it.​

I would further observe that neither the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales, the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland, nor Chartered Accountants Ireland (which includes Northern Ireland) are members of the Science Council.
_____
^*Some may recall that I mentioned at that time that I was teaching science. The whole teaching thing didn't pan out, and I'm back to working as a mechanical designer.

According to Regenesys Business School the number one essential skill needed is mathematical, which suggests to me it leans towards the scientific side.

Of course, if you are on the business or industry side as an entrepreneur, then it becomes more of an art, as you need vision, which in itself requires insight and creativity (getting an idea that works is incredibly hard), leadership and motivation, not to mention innovation skills, which I guess all of that would fall under that elusive quality known as 'business acumen' or flair.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Now you know why he didn't give his name.

You still haven't proved that he even exists.

 

[novaphile]

A later inserted sentence means everything. Nuance. Nuuuu-ance.

If "some of which were unintentionally slightly ambiguous", then Jenny of Communications should be sacked for putting a spin on it or a training gap brought to the attention of Beds F&RS HR department as being insufficiently capable of understanding what Hopkinson actually said.

I see you've gone back to inventing fantasy people in your fantasy world again.

And again, what is it with you and putting down women all the time?

 

[Vixen]

I see you've gone back to inventing fantasy people in your fantasy world again.

And again, what is it with you and putting down women all the time?

This is the third, fourth or even fifth time you have made this strange snide comment.


Citation please of how you work this out.

 

[JayUtah]

...which suggests to me it leans towards the scientific side.

No. There is more to science than arithmetic.

...I guess all of that would fall under that elusive quality known as 'business acumen' or flair.

I am part owner in a business. Science is our business, and I am one of its scientists. I know science. I know business. They are not the same thing no matter how fervently you want to think so.

 

[GlennB]

This is the third, fourth or even fifth time you have made this strange snide comment.

Citation please of how you work this out.

Your many posts, where you demean 'Jenny of Communications'.

 

[ZiprHead]

Those are for employment. They do not establish academic equivalence.

Level 7 requires a Master's degree, not an equivalent. They even give an example. Or am I reading that wrong?

 

[Vixen]

Your many posts, where you demean 'Jenny of Communications'.

Open up a thread on sexual politics if you think this is a thing.

 

[Vixen]

Level 7 requires a Master's degree, not an equivalent. They even give an example. Or am I reading that wrong?

Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Classification_of_Education

 

[W.D.Clinger]

In her quest to convince herself that accounting has something to do with science, Vixen cited a web site advertising an undergraduate degree in accounting offered by a private business school in South Africa.

According to Regenesys Business School the number one essential skill needed is mathematical, which suggests to me it leans towards the scientific side.

Quoting from that web site:

Accounting requires Math, but it’s important to note that the mathematics level involved in accounting is simple enough....

Accountants must be proficient in arithmetic operations such as addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division....

Here are the critical mathematical skills essential for a successful career in accounting.

• Basic Arithmetic...
• Fractions and Percentages...
• Algebra (by which they mean the kind of algebra that, in the United States, is taught in junior high and high schools)
• Statistics (by which they mean the ability "to calculate measures of central tendency, analyse variance, and construct meaningful financial reports based on data analysis.")
• Probability (by which they most definitely do not mean measure theory, but might be talking about martingales)
• Calculus ("Although only required for some accounting roles, a basic understanding of calculus can be advantageous.")
• Financial Mathematics (such as "compound interest, present value, future value, and annuities")

There is no mention of differential equations, complex numbers, groups, fields, Hilbert spaces, Euclidean or non-Euclidean or differential geometry, number theory, graph theory, combinatorics, information theory, et cetera.

So yes, the "mathematics level involved in accounting is simple enough", and the idea that accounting's connection to the simplest concepts of mathematics might somehow turn accounting into a science is pretty silly.

Although it is not hard to find people saying accounting is a science, those arguments tend to be self-consciously apologetic, as for example (with italics as in the original):

• Nowadays, no one can deny the scientific nature of accounting, although there are still many authors that keep denying these facts.....Nowadays, this science stands with its own means of research, its extensive legal-economic connections and its methodology as one of the great realities of contemporary knowledge....Science constitutes an ordered set of knowledge that you as accountant, methodically achieved with respect to certain phenomena you take from reality, while its implicit technique manifests itself as a set of procedures and resources to achieve an objective; the first can’t exist without the latter…
  
  
• Accounting is an art....Nonetheless, it is a body of knowledge hence also a science.

 

[novaphile]

Your many posts, where you demean 'Jenny of Communications'.

Thank you.

 

[whoanellie]

ETA: I've been ninja'd

According to Regenesys Business School the number one essential skill needed is mathematical, which suggests to me it leans towards the scientific side.

There are big leaps beween accounting require some basic math skills to it is "leaning towards the scientific side" to "I am a scientist".

Thanks for providing the link to insights such as this:

Does Accounting Require Math?
The answer is yes.

Accounting requires Math, but it’s important to note that the mathematics level involved in accounting is simple enough. Basic math skills are essential for accountants to perform their day-to-day duties accurately.

Why Does Accounting Require Math?
Math is an essential tool for accountants. On daily tasks, accountants use different types of math in different ways. Listed below are a few of them.

Accountants must be proficient in arithmetic operations such as addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. They use these skills to calculate the value of assets, liabilities, revenues, expenses, and profits. Additionally, accountants may need to work with percentages, ratios, and fractions to analyse financial data and make informed judgments.

Advanced accounting concepts like financial analysis, budgeting, forecasting, and tax planning may involve more complex mathematical calculations.

 

[novaphile]

Open up a thread on sexual politics if you think this is a thing.

I don't think anyone should do this, I believe that it would, in effect, be a 'call out thread' which moderators have advised is a breach of the membership agreement.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Open up a thread on sexual politics if you think this is a thing.

Ah, we've come to the portion of the argument where Vixen dismisses anything anyone has to say as being off topic as if she hasn't A. Been the originator in whatever the derail du jour is and B. Didn't immediately before this ask for people to talk about the thing she now decides is off topic.

 

[ZiprHead]

Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Classification_of_Education

Is there a certain portion you would like to cite to supplement your case? Sending me to several walls of text is practically useless.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

Level 7 requires a Master's degree, not an equivalent. They even give an example. Or am I reading that wrong?

ISCED 2011, the International Standard Classification of Education, is an 87-page document full of standards-speak. It does say all of the following things.

3. ISCED classifies education programmes by their content using two main cross classification variables: levels of education (see Section 9) and fields of education (see Annex IV)....It also introduces a related classification of educational attainment levels based on recognised educational qualifications.

10. The basic units of classification in ISCED are the national (and sub-national) education programme and the related recognised educational qualification.

11. ....A common characteristic of an education programme is that, upon fulfilment of learning objectives or educational tasks, successful completion is certified.

20. Within the context of ISCED, an educational qualification is the official confirmation, usually in the form of a document certifying the successful completion of an education programme or a stage of a programme. Qualifications can be obtained through: i) successful completion of a full education programme; ii) successful completion of a stage of an education programme (intermediate qualifications); or iii) validation of acquired knowledge, skills and competencies, independent of participation in an education programme

21. ISCED 2011 considers the recognised qualifications corresponding to an education programme as a related unit of the classification. In ISCED, the term ‘qualification’ is synonymous with ‘credential’. Other terms such as ‘certificate’, ‘degree’ or ‘diploma’ are types of qualification and are treated as being synonymous with each other within ISCED.

22. In ISCED, education programmes are classified first and qualifications are subsequently classified. The ISCED mapping is the tool to show the links between education programmes and qualifications....

23. The recognition of (prior) learning through non-formal education or informal learning has become more common in many countries over the last decade. ISCED 2011 specifically allows for the classification of qualifications obtained through the demonstrated acquisition of skills, knowledge and competencies comparable to successful completion of a formal education programme and acknowledged through a formal qualification.

So ISCED does recognize that non-formal education or informal learning can, in some cases, result in qualifications "comparable to successful completion of a formal education programme and acknowledged through a formal qualification."

Thus far, we're still on page 9. Skipping ahead to page 56, we find

ISCED LEVEL 7 MASTER’S OR EQUIVALENT LEVEL

A. Principal characteristics

241. Programmes at ISCED level 7, or Master’s or equivalent level, are often designed to provide participants with advanced academic and/or professional knowledge, skills and competencies, leading to a second degree or equivalent qualification....They are traditionally offered by universities and other tertiary educational institutions.

242. Instruction at this level often takes the form of lectures by staff who are typically required to have attained ISCED levels 7 or 8....

243....

244. Programmes classified at ISCED level 7 may be referred to in many ways, for example: master programmes or magister. However, it is important to note that programmes with a similar name to ‘master’ should only be included in ISCED level 7 if they satisfy the criteria described in Paragraph 245. For international comparability purposes the term ‘Master’s or equivalent level’ is used to label ISCED level 7.

Paragraphs 245 through 249 describe "Classification criteria", and amount to a bureaucratic description of what a traditional master's degree program is like. Note, however, that paragraph 247 concludes by saying

Highly-specialised professional studies of similar or greater cumulative duration in tertiary education (e.g. medicine, dentistry, veterinary science and in some cases law or engineering) which cover – in both breadth and depth – an equivalent amount of content, though typically without the preparation of a thesis or dissertation, are also included at this level.

Paragraph 252 lists two "orientation categories": academic and professional.

Paragraph 256 says "Participation without recognised successful completion in any first degree at ISCED level 7 or a second or further degree at ISCED level 7 following successful completion of a Bachelor’s or equivalent programme is disregarded for the purposes of determining educational attainment levels."

Insofar as ISCED 2011 has any relevance whatsoever to ongoing discussions in this thread, that's about it. A single sentence holds out the possibility that "Highly-specialised professional studies of similar or greater cumulative duration...which cover – in both breadth and depth – an equivalent amount of content...are also included at this level."

 

[Vixen]

In her quest to convince herself that accounting has something to do with science, Vixen cited a web site advertising an undergraduate degree in accounting offered by a private business school in South Africa.




Quoting from that web site:

There is no mention of differential equations, complex numbers, groups, fields, Hilbert spaces, Euclidean or non-Euclidean or differential geometry, number theory, graph theory, combinatorics, information theory, et cetera.

So yes, the "mathematics level involved in accounting is simple enough", and the idea that accounting's connection to the simplest concepts of mathematics might somehow turn accounting into a science is pretty silly.

Although it is not hard to find people saying accounting is a science, those arguments tend to be self-consciously apologetic, as for example (with italics as in the original):

• Nowadays, no one can deny the scientific nature of accounting, although there are still many authors that keep denying these facts.....Nowadays, this science stands with its own means of research, its extensive legal-economic connections and its methodology as one of the great realities of contemporary knowledge....Science constitutes an ordered set of knowledge that you as accountant, methodically achieved with respect to certain phenomena you take from reality, while its implicit technique manifests itself as a set of procedures and resources to achieve an objective; the first can’t exist without the latter…
  
  
• Accounting is an art....Nonetheless, it is a body of knowledge hence also a science.

Twas the first site I came across which explained to a beginner what basic core skills they need for an 'accounting' course. Professional accountancy goes way beyond 'arithmetic'.