Trump and money

[acbytesla]

Trump responded to E Jean Carroll's objection to Trump’s request that he be allowed an unsecured stay of the 83.3 million dollar judgment against him.

But the response offered nothing more than the original request which was denied. No legal rationale at all, But the response did include an attempt to negotiate something that is normally non-negotiable.

Trump’s lawyers ask that Trump be allowed to post a bond of only $24.4 million of the $91.1 million that is required.

This is the second time in a week that Trump has attempted to bargain the amount of an appeal bond.

The judge overseeing the New York attorney general’s civil fraud case entered a $454 million judgment against Trump last month, bringing the total the former president owes in judgments to over half a billion dollars. Trump offered to post a $100 million bond and asked an appeals court judge to delay the timing of the bond. The appellate judge denied his motion for a stay on Wednesday.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/03/02/politics/trump-e-jean-carroll-bond-delay/index.html

 

[acbytesla]

Trump's lawyers actually made filings in two different courts in two days that said.

1. I shouldn't have to post a bond because I'm super rich.

and

2. I shouldn't have to post a bond because I don't have the money.

And in neither case did they present the courts with any evidence to prove either.

"Trust me," shouldn't cut it. Especially from a liar like Trump.

 

[Darat]

Trump's lawyers actually made filings in two different courts in two days that said.

1. I shouldn't have to post a bond because I'm super rich.

and

2. I shouldn't have to post a bond because I don't have the money.

And in neither case did they present the courts with any evidence to prove either.

"Trust me," shouldn't cut it. Especially from a liar like Trump.

His filings also did not raise any actual legal arguments, his "argument" boiled down to "It's unfair - I don't wanna pay" which to be fair is what Trump believes is the law of the land.

 

[acbytesla]

His filings also did not raise any actual legal arguments, his "argument" boiled down to "It's unfair - I don't wanna pay" which to be fair is what Trump believes is the law of the land.

I think there is zero chance that Judge Kaplan will grant his request to not post the bond in full. This week has the potential of crushing Trump financially. He will go crazy when both motions to stay bond payments is denied. And will totally lose it if the chancery court in Delaware delays the SPAC merger.

Trump doesn't have the money.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I think there is zero chance that Judge Kaplan will grant his request to not post the bond in full. This week has the potential of crushing Trump financially. He will go crazy when both motions to stay bond payments is denied. And will totally lose it if the chancery court in Delaware delays the SPAC merger.

Trump doesn't have the money.

couldn't Trump declare a technical bankruptcy and basically hold both cases in limbo for years and years?

 

[Craig4]

couldn't Trump declare a technical bankruptcy and basically hold both cases in limbo for years and years?

Probably not. Defamation and fraud are willful, malicious acts. Bankruptcy won't discharge debts for willful acts. He could probably try that and try to tie up the debt in bankruptcy court but it would be a short-term delay. Alex Jones tried that and it didn't work for him for very long.

 

[acbytesla]

couldn't Trump declare a technical bankruptcy and basically hold both cases in limbo for years and years?

Probably not. Defamation and fraud are willful, malicious acts. Bankruptcy won't discharge debts for willful acts. He could probably try that and try to tie up the debt in bankruptcy court but it would be a short-term delay. Alex Jones tried that and it didn't work for him for very long.

Trump will do what he has to do to survive. But Craig is right. Fraud and willful torts are not dischargeable.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Probably not. Defamation and fraud are willful, malicious acts. Bankruptcy won't discharge debts for willful acts. He could probably try that and try to tie up the debt in bankruptcy court but it would be a short-term delay. Alex Jones tried that and it didn't work for him for very long.

sure, but a bankruptcy would hold dispersal until all the debtors can be identified and the assets catalogued and assessed. That could take years. Only then would the verdict sums be paid out as priority claims.

And in the meantime, Trump would get a fat monthly check to live as he does now, and live in his properties.
And, of course, if he is President, he would live on the taxpayer's dime.

 

[acbytesla]

sure, but a bankruptcy would hold dispersal until all the debtors can be identified and the assets catalogued and assessed. That could take years. Only then would the verdict sums be paid out as priority claims.

And in the meantime, Trump would get a fat monthly check to live as he does now, and live in his properties.
And, of course, if he is President, he would live on the taxpayer's dime.

Actually, with Trump and the Trump Organization, this should be about as easy a collection as they get.

For the last year, there has been a financial monitor embedded within the Trump Organization. And Engoron ordered that a compliance monitor also be embedded. And that monitor is retired federal judge Barbara Jones. Also, her duties have been expanded to provide her with robust tools to ensure the judge's orders are carried out.

It might be harder for Carroll to collect than the New York State AG as her judgment is solely against Donald Trump. The AG's judgment is against Don Sr, Don Jr, Eric, AlanWeisselberg, a couple of other Trump Organization financial officers. And it is also against the Trump Organization and more than a half dozen holding companies.

But then again, Carroll should also benefit from there being a financial monitor to tell us where the money is.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Actually, with Trump and the Trump Organization, this should be about as easy a collection as they get.

For the last year, there has been a financial monitor embedded within the Trump Organization. And Engoron ordered that a compliance monitor also be embedded. And that monitor is retired federal judge Barbara Jones. Also, her duties have been expanded to provide her with robust tools to ensure the judge's orders are carried out.

It might be harder for Carroll to collect than the New York State AG as her judgment is solely against Donald Trump. The AG's judgment is against Don Sr, Don Jr, Eric, AlanWeisselberg, a couple of other Trump Organization financial officers. And it is also against the Trump Organization and more than a half dozen holding companies.

But then again, Carroll should also benefit from there being a financial monitor to tell us where the money is.

It's in Dubai. And Moscow. A small pocket-coin amount of a few mill is stashed in one of the Mar-a-Lago bathrooms.

 

[TragicMonkey]

It's in Dubai. And Moscow. A small pocket-coin amount of a few mill is stashed in one of the Mar-a-Lago bathrooms.

There's always money in the banana stand!

 

[acbytesla]

It's in Dubai. And Moscow. A small pocket-coin amount of a few mill is stashed in one of the Mar-a-Lago bathrooms.

It's also in Trump Tower, 40 Wall Street, Mar a Lago, Trump Chicago, Trump Park Avenue, Vornado Realty Trust, Seven Springs, Briarcliff, Trump National Golf Club, Aberdeen Golf, Ferry Point. There are also various homes. There are licensing deals.

Trump almost certainly has the assets needed to satisfy the judgments. But he doesn't appear to have enough liquidity to post the bonds. He is going to have to put up in collateral, most of his real estate holdings as well as pay 15 to 30 million dollars in fees and probably pay 10 percent or more in interest.

Let's say that Trump finds a bank or banks willing to give him an irrevocable line of credit. And let's say that the appeals takes a year. (Probably closer to two) And let's say Trump loses the appeals. Right now we're looking at 550 million dollars and about a million dollars a week. A bond will turn that into 580 million and probably more like a 700 million dollar debt in a year. And he still will have to pay. But instead of the AG and the Carroll's lawyers liquidating Trump's assets, the banks will do it.

 

[Norman Alexander]

It's also in Trump Tower, 40 Wall Street, Mar a Lago, Trump Chicago, Trump Park Avenue, Vornado Realty Trust, Seven Springs, Briarcliff, Trump National Golf Club, Aberdeen Golf, Ferry Point. There are also various homes. There are licensing deals.

I was partially joking, but you are correct - that's where Trump's "wealth" is. But that's not where his liquid cash is. He could certainly sell one or more of these to get some, though. But such massive deals take weeks, months, years. Meanwhile, Trump lives off credit. He can't take too much out of his banks because that is the permanent collateral he needs today for the banks to ensure his loans. Draw on that and they might ask him to repay faster, or even in full...which he can't as he is stretched as it is.

Trump almost certainly has the assets needed to satisfy the judgments. But he doesn't appear to have enough liquidity to post the bonds. He is going to have to put up in collateral, most of his real estate holdings as well as pay 15 to 30 million dollars in fees and probably pay 10 percent or more in interest.

Let's say that Trump finds a bank or banks willing to give him an irrevocable line of credit. And let's say that the appeals takes a year. (Probably closer to two) And let's say Trump loses the appeals. Right now we're looking at 550 million dollars and about a million dollars a week. A bond will turn that into 580 million and probably more like a 700 million dollar debt in a year. And he still will have to pay. But instead of the AG and the Carroll's lawyers liquidating Trump's assets, the banks will do it.

At the rate things are going, he will never afford the fines. They look to be increasing faster than he can get funds to pay them. He has only three choices: bankruptcy, sell properties fast even at a loss to get the cash, or get the cash from some other janky source.

That last one was why he was hanging out for the sale of Trothe Sential (or whatever the deal was). Clearly he had some anonymous buyer lined up to literally donate him the cash by buying his worthless business. Since the Hungarian president was visiting him, two guesses who that was and the first doesn't count. It was a variant of old Fred buying millions of dollars of chips to help keep his casino afloat (which still failed, as we know).

 

[novaphile]

Others have already mentioned that bankruptcy doesn't get him out.

Some classes of debt are protected from bankruptcy.

 

[The Don]

Others have already mentioned that bankruptcy doesn't get him out.

Some classes of debt are protected from bankruptcy.

It doesn't have to get him out, it just has to delay, delay until he's reelected, his donors come up with the money, or he's able to convince some court somewhere that he doesn't need to pay (or at least pay that much).

If he declares bankruptcy then it'll be years until his creditors see a cent and it will be pennies on the dollar if any money is paid - another "win" from his perspective.

 

[acbytesla]

It doesn't have to get him out, it just has to delay, delay until he's reelected, his donors come up with the money, or he's able to convince some court somewhere that he doesn't need to pay (or at least pay that much).

If he declares bankruptcy then it'll be years until his creditors see a cent and it will be pennies on the dollar if any money is paid - another "win" from his perspective.

Not exactly. It depends on the bankruptcy judge and what the creditors want to do. I use to follow bankruptcies. Trump has declared corporate bankruptcy five times, but never personal bankruptcy. Trump is leveraged to the hilt. If he declares bankruptcy his company will be toast. The creditors will be screaming for their money.

 

[The Don]

Not exactly. It depends on the bankruptcy judge and what the creditors want to do. I use to follow bankruptcies. Trump has declared corporate bankruptcy five times, but never personal bankruptcy. Trump is leveraged to the hilt. If he declares bankruptcy his company will be toast. The creditors will be screaming for their money.

I suppose it depends on the space he has managed to generate between himself and the Trump corporate entities. As a shareholder in BP, my personal financial circumstances have no bearing on them but of course that's because I'm not really linked to them or influential in any way. Musk or Bezos are a better analog - while their personal financial circumstances may cause the companies they own some reputational damage, they wouldn't send them under. Of course most of those companies are publicly quoted

I thought the whole purpose of incorporation was to separate personal and business finances. In that way a failing business wouldn't take the individual down with them and vice versa. His personal bankruptcy should shield the corporations (and the other shareholders) from his personal financial woes.

I know I'm a Debbie Downer but I'd be shocked if any of his creditors see more than a token sum and his businesses will continue as before IMO. He's incredibly skilled at using bankruptcy to his advantage.

Edited to add ...

And those institutions which hold his loans aren't typical banks. At this stage IMO they are co-conspirators in money laundering and influence peddling rather than normal financial institutions.

 

[acbytesla]

I suppose it depends on the space he has managed to generate between himself and the Trump corporate entities. As a shareholder in BP, my personal financial circumstances have no bearing on them but of course that's because I'm not really linked to them or influential in any way. Musk or Bezos are a better analog - while their personal financial circumstances may cause the companies they own some reputational damage, they wouldn't send them under. Of course most of those companies are publicly quoted

I thought the whole purpose of incorporation was to separate personal and business finances. In that way a failing business wouldn't take the individual down with them and vice versa. His personal bankruptcy should shield the corporations (and the other shareholders) from his personal financial woes.

I know I'm a Debbie Downer but I'd be shocked if any of his creditors see more than a token sum and his businesses will continue as before IMO. He's incredibly skilled at using bankruptcy to his advantage.

Edited to add ...

And those institutions which hold his loans aren't typical banks. At this stage IMO they are co-conspirators in money laundering and influence peddling rather than normal financial institutions.

This isn't exactly true. But every bankruptcy is different. You're right about some of this and not so much about other aspects. You're absolutely right that in most bankruptcies, the creditors usually can get more than a fraction of what is owed to them. Most companies go bankrupt because they're broke and they don't have the resources to pay their creditors.

You're also right that individuals create corporations to protect personal assets from a business failure. But in the fraud case, the companies and Trump are jointly and severally liable. That means they are all individually and wholly responsible for paying the full judgment. We know what their assets are. And fraud is not dischargeable either.


In the rape/defamation judgment of 83.3 million dollars. Trump is the only defendant in that case. That makes Trump solely responsible. He would have to declare personal bankruptcy to attempt to sidestep that judgment. And has been said before, a malicious and willful tort is not dischargeable through bankruptcy. So any asset in his name can be seized including bank accounts, stocks, and property. I don't see how it helps.
The plaintiffs might not get every dollar, but the law allows them to take almost every penny the defendant has outside of basic day to day expenses. Neither Mar a Lago or his penthouse apartment qualify as basic.

 

[Darat]

I suppose it depends on the space he has managed to generate between himself and the Trump corporate entities. As a shareholder in BP, my personal financial circumstances have no bearing on them but of course that's because I'm not really linked to them or influential in any way. Musk or Bezos are a better analog - while their personal financial circumstances may cause the companies they own some reputational damage, they wouldn't send them under. Of course most of those companies are publicly quoted

I thought the whole purpose of incorporation was to separate personal and business finances. In that way a failing business wouldn't take the individual down with them and vice versa. His personal bankruptcy should shield the corporations (and the other shareholders) from his personal financial woes.

I know I'm a Debbie Downer but I'd be shocked if any of his creditors see more than a token sum and his businesses will continue as before IMO.

He's incredibly skilled at using bankruptcy to his advantage.

Edited to add ...

And those institutions which hold his loans aren't typical banks. At this stage IMO they are co-conspirators in money laundering and influence peddling rather than normal financial institutions.

No he isn't. He's had many skilled "fixers". The problem is the ones that knew where the bodies were buried have gone to jail or died, and he is now under such scrutiny the "dodgy" stuff can't be hidden behind obscurity. It is very different circumstances than the past.

 

[psionl0]

I thought the whole purpose of incorporation was to separate personal and business finances. In that way a failing business wouldn't take the individual down with them and vice versa. His personal bankruptcy should shield the corporations (and the other shareholders) from his personal financial woes.

If Trump personally owns shares in his corporations then he can be divested of them in a personal bankruptcy.

No doubt, Trump has more legal arrangements including trusts that would give him greater shielding than for the average incorporator.