Cont: The One Covid-19 Science and Medicine Thread Part 5

[The Atheist]

...unless you are equating neurological with mental illness.

Yep.

The current line of demarcation between disorders of mind and of brain is counterproductive for clinicians and patients on both sides of the line. We propose, therefore, that psychiatric disorders should be reclassified as disorders of the (central) nervous system. This will update our classificatory system in the light of contemporary neuroscience and foster the integration of psychiatry into the mainstream of medicine, where it belongs.

BMJ 2012

Do keep up, there's a good chap.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Yep.

The current line of demarcation between disorders of mind and of brain is counterproductive for clinicians and patients on both sides of the line. We propose, therefore, that psychiatric disorders should be reclassified as disorders of the (central) nervous system. This will update our classificatory system in the light of contemporary neuroscience and foster the integration of psychiatry into the mainstream of medicine, where it belongs.

BMJ 2012

Do keep up, there's a good chap.

I propose that their proposal be rejected.

Why Do We Separate Psychiatry and Neurology?

December 1, 2019

As advances in neurobiology and genetics reveal complex associations between brain structure, function, and the symptoms of mental illness, there have been renewed calls to reposition mental illness as disease of the nervous system. This is highlighted in public statements by prominent figures in American psychiatry, such as Thomas Insel's assertion that mental illness is brain disease and Eric Kandel's proposal to merge psychiatry with neurology...

I argue that these proposals to reclassify mental illness as neurological disease are based on a basic category error and that the distinction between psychiatry and neurology is not an arbitrary one...

Neurological diseases are, by definition, diseases of the central and peripheral nervous system, and they can generally be identified on the basis of objective medical testing, such as electroencephalography for epilepsy and magnetic resonance imaging for a brain tumor...

In contrast, mental or psychiatric illness is characterized by a clinically significant disturbance in an individual's thoughts, feelings, or behaviors. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders is theoretically neutral on the cause of mental disorders, and, despite claims to the contrary by antipsychiatrists, organized American psychiatry has never officially defined mental illness as "chemical imbalance" or brain disease (see Pies, 2019).

While many advances have been made in the realms of neuroscience and genetics that aid our understanding of mental illness, there remains not a single identifiable biomarker for any mental disorder. Historically, mental disorders have been considered functional diseases, due to their impairment of functioning, rather than structural diseases, which are associated with known biological abnormalities.

You wouldn't call a software engineer to fix a hardware problem in your computer, or vice versa. The same applies to people. Any disease can cause mental problems due to stress and worry etc. But Long Covid is more than that. Symptoms such as continual fatigue, fever, abdominal pain, joint and muscle pain, vomiting and diarrhea cannot be dismissed as 'mental issues'.

 

[The Atheist]

But Long Covid is more than that. Symptoms such as continual fatigue, fever, abdominal pain, joint and muscle pain, vomiting and diarrhea cannot be dismissed as 'mental issues'.

When serotonin works, it sure can.

 

[lionking]

When serotonin works, it sure can.

I tend to agree. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter and there is no evidence it has any effect on respiratory diseases.

 

[The Atheist]

CDC finally sees the light and pretty much throws out all advice regarding isolation, reflecting the reality of the disease, and the fact that it's unnecessary:

Data from other countries, as well as California and Oregon, which have already adopted this policy, show that the change in guidance probably won't make much of a difference in disease transmission. Research suggests that more than half of COVID cases are transmitted from people without symptoms at the time. And many people who got COVID-19 weren't isolating anyway.

Get your vaccine and fuggedaboutit.

CDC data shows that around 95% of people hospitalized with COVID did not get a fall booster shot.

"It's not just being over 65 that is high risk," the CDC's Cohen says, "it's being over 65 and not getting those vaccines that puts you at high risk."

 

[Puppycow]

Scientists discover the major culprit in long COVID cases

Take that headline with a grain of salt naturally.

Researchers have pinpointed iron deficiencies as a key factor in prolonged recovery from COVID-19, commonly referred to as long COVID.

A study by the University of Cambridge, recently published in Nature Immunology, uncovered the significant role of depleted iron levels in post-COVID symptoms. Findings suggest that low iron not only exacerbates inflammation and anemia but also disrupts the production of healthy red blood cells shortly after contracting COVID-19.

“When the body has an infection, it responds by removing iron from the bloodstream. This protects us from potentially lethal bacteria that capture the iron in the bloodstream and grow rapidly,” said co-author Hal Drakesmith, according to the New York Post. “It’s an evolutionary response that redistributes iron in the body, and the blood plasma becomes an iron desert.”

Within just two weeks post-diagnosis, patients exhibited a direct correlation between diminished iron reserves and increased health complications. A number of the patients later experienced persistent long COVID conditions, a syndrome now linked to cognitive decline, including a measurable reduction in IQ caused by brain fog.

ETA: I found the study in question:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-024-01754-8

 

[The Atheist]

Fascinating.

I'd be interested to know if more vegans - who generally have lower iron levels - are more susceptible to long covid than carnivores.

 

[icerat]

Fascinating.

I'd be interested to know if more vegans - who generally have lower iron levels - are more susceptible to long covid than carnivores.

The mechanism identified in the study isn't lack of dietary iron, but elevated IL-6 inducing Hepcedin, which prevents stored iron from being available for transport to where it's needed (serum iron)

Elevated IL-6 has been identified in multiple long covid studies. The low serum iron is likely a mechanism which leads to some of the symptoms of Long Covid, but it's not the cause, which is increasingly likely to be persistent infection.

The chronic T-cell activation is worrying, and also been seen in other studies. That's a hallmark of HIV, though it depletes CD4+ whereas SARS2 seems to deplete CD8+

 

[icerat]

Latest US Household Pulse Survey, which includes questions on Long Covid, was published last week. It's the only global metric I know of still trying to ascertain Long Covid prevalence. And ... contrary to the certainty of The Atheist that Long Covid is "done and dusted" (pandemic over thread), FOr January 2024 it's measured it the highest level ever, with 17.6% of respondents (adults only) reporting they've "ever" had long covid and 6.8% having it at the time of the survey, up from and 14.3 and 5.3% respectively.

IMO this is likely an underestimate since -

(a) people don't get covid any more, they get "a cold" or "the flu" so are less likely to attribute ongoing health issues to covid, especially given the survey leads by asking if they've had a positive test

(b) people who had reported ongoing systems back in 2020 or 2021 and recovered are more likely to "forget" now and report they've never had it. I've seen numerous anecdotal accounts of this.

 

[The Atheist]

Latest US Household Pulse Survey, which includes questions on Long Covid, was published last week. It's the only global metric I know of still trying to ascertain Long Covid prevalence. And ... contrary to the certainty of The Atheist that Long Covid is "done and dusted" (pandemic over thread), FOr January 2024 it's measured it the highest level ever, with 17.6% of respondents (adults only) reporting they've "ever" had long covid and 6.8% having it at the time of the survey, up from and 14.3 and 5.3% respectively.

Aside from it being self-reported and therefore irrelevant, the numbers would be expected to increase after a fairly large wave. The only interesting point is it shows 2/3 of alleged long covid sufferers having recovered completely.

 

[Pixel42]

Why this guy thought it necessary to get vaccinated so many times I cannot begin to imagine, but it must surely make some of the antivax idiots reconsider.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68477735

A 62-year-old man from Germany has, against medical advice, been vaccinated 217 times against Covid, doctors report.

The bizarre case is documented in The Lancet Infectious Diseases journal.

The shots were bought and given privately within the space of 29 months.

The man appears to have suffered no ill effects, researchers from the University of Erlangen-Nuremberg say.

 

[Puppycow]

Some sort of strange compulsive behavior. A mental illness I would assume.

 

[The Atheist]

Nothing new in the article, and it's from The Fail, but still an interesting read on covid and the next pandemic from John Bell and Jeremy Farrar: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...-Sir-John-Bell-pandemic-worse-Oxford-MPs.html

Possibly even more interesting than the article are the comments after it. The depth of feeling some people show to science in breathtakingly scary. I'm already on record as saying covid is the worst thing that could have happened in preparation for a deadly pandemic, and I think that's getting firmer all the time.

 

[steenkh]

Some sort of strange compulsive behavior. A mental illness I would assume.

Maybe you can get addicted?

 

[Puppycow]

Maybe you can get addicted?

If only one person (that we know of) got "addicted" in this way, out of the billions who were vaccinated, I'd say no. This is not addiction in the normal sense of the word.

I'm sure you've been vaccinated, as have I, and there was nothing enjoyable about the effects that would make me want to take it for purely recreational reasons.

 

[steenkh]

If only one person (that we know of) got "addicted" in this way, out of the billions who were vaccinated, I'd say no. This is not addiction in the normal sense of the word.

I'm sure you've been vaccinated, as have I, and there was nothing enjoyable about the effects that would make me want to take it for purely recreational reasons.

I certainly haven’t been vaccinated hundreds of times, so I don’t know if there is a possibility of getting addicted, but in any case the comment was not meant to be entirely seriously.

I have been vaccinated five times and I have not experienced any effect at all, negative or positive, not even a sore arm (which I experienced with a flu jab).

 

[novaphile]

I certainly haven’t been vaccinated hundreds of times, so I don’t know if there is a possibility of getting addicted, but in any case the comment was not meant to be entirely seriously.

I have been vaccinated five times and I have not experienced any effect at all, negative or positive, not even a sore arm (which I experienced with a flu jab).

I'm always interested in the range of responses to vaccinations, and have a cautionary tale.

My brother recently reported having no response to a vaccine, and was tested to see if he was producing antibodies, and it was found that he was not. He's had that vaccine three times now and has been advised that he is still not showing an adequate response.

This was the Hep B vaccine (I think) and I don't know if the third one was the double strength dose which is supposed to prevent this problem.

One of the COVID vaccines caused me more issues than the others (spent about 12 hours sleeping it off) but I had a 'response' to all of them. In a nutshell, I would describe it as the feeling you get, just before you get sick, but without getting sick.

I have a more localised response (stiff, sore arm) with the annual flu vaccines.

 

[marting]

For what it's worth, I got the covid booster and flu at the same time. Flu arm was sore for a day, Covid arm sore for 2 days. I was slightly tired after the shots and slept really well. Felt really good the next day (except for the sore arms). No other side effects. Same for my wife.

As far as I know, neither my wife nor I have ever contracted Covid. We did both get a runny nose that lasted a good week 2 days after a trip to Costco. No other symptoms. Runny nose is one of the most common symptoms of Covid even if not serious. Rapid tests both came back negative.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm always interested in the range of responses to vaccinations, and have a cautionary tale.

My brother recently reported having no response to a vaccine, and was tested to see if he was producing antibodies, and it was found that he was not. He's had that vaccine three times now and has been advised that he is still not showing an adequate response.

This was the Hep B vaccine (I think) and I don't know if the third one was the double strength dose which is supposed to prevent this problem.

One of the COVID vaccines caused me more issues than the others (spent about 12 hours sleeping it off) but I had a 'response' to all of them. In a nutshell, I would describe it as the feeling you get, just before you get sick, but without getting sick.

I have a more localised response (stiff, sore arm) with the annual flu vaccines.

Hep B vaccine responses have nothing to do with COVID vaccine responses.

There is a small % of hep B vaccine non-responders. There are also providers who don't understand the fact it's OK if an initial responder has undetectable antibodies a year or more later. And if you give that person another vaccine dose and don't retest them for more than 3-6 months you are likely to get another false negative titer.

If he is a true non-responder some people have converted to a positive responder with an intradermal series. If it matters he might want to research that.

 

[The Atheist]

For what it's worth, I got the covid booster and flu at the same time. Flu arm was sore for a day, Covid arm sore for 2 days.

Pretty much the same here - both covid and 'flu vaccines give me a tender arm for a day and that's it.

The tetanus vaccine is the bastard.