Cont: Roe v Wade overturned - this is some BS part II

[Gulliver Foyle]

Isn't that self-evident if life begins at conception?

And ends at birth given the way these types of people think.

 

[acbytesla]

I certainly hope so. But people are slow when it comes to admitting that they may have made a mistake.

That is so true.

But the backlash is likely to come from everyone else. The maxim in politics is that 40% are Democrats, 40% are Republicans. Winning elections is about turnout and that other 20% which is bi. You know, they go both ways.

If you can't sufficiently motivate your side and you can't get the people in the middle, you're going to lose big.

 

[steenkh]

More from the can of worms:
Alabama embryo ruling may have devastating effect on cancer patients

Worries are mounting about the ruling’s effect on people, including many cancer patients, who say IVF may be their only way of having a family.

 

[jrhowell]

More from the can of worms:
Alabama embryo ruling may have devastating effect on cancer patients

Ok that went in a different direction than I thought. I was expecting to hear a ruling that tumors being composed human cells just like a zygote are also human and so killing them is considered to be murder.

 

[Mike!]

Ok that went in a different direction than I thought. I was expecting to hear a ruling that tumors being composed human cells just like a zygote are also human and so killing them is considered to be murder.

Don't give them ideas.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

I pity the American people. One of your political parties is rapidly pushing for a theocracy and is cheered on all the way by the MAGA crowd.

Seriously, judges using the bible rather than democratically determined laws and actual science? And there are those that vote for this?
Not to mention, how is it possible that women vote for the GOP, do they WANT to go back to being objects owned by their parents? Are the Taliban and Iran examples who just follow the wrong religion but otherwise are examplary?

 

[acbytesla]

I pity the American people. One of your political parties is rapidly pushing for a theocracy and is cheered on all the way by the MAGA crowd.

Seriously, judges using the bible rather than democratically determined laws and actual science? And there are those that vote for this?
Not to mention, how is it possible that women vote for the GOP, do they WANT to go back to being objects owned by their parents? Are the Taliban and Iran examples who just follow the wrong religion but otherwise are examplary?

That is Alabama for you. The Deep South has more than its share of crazy racist Bible Thumpers. Alabama and Mississippi are probably the craziest.

 

[Aridas]

I pity the American people. One of your political parties is rapidly pushing for a theocracy and is cheered on all the way by the MAGA crowd.

Seriously, judges using the bible rather than democratically determined laws and actual science? And there are those that vote for this?

Unfortunately, Dominionism really is a thing.

Not to mention, how is it possible that women vote for the GOP, do they WANT to go back to being objects owned by their parents? Are the Taliban and Iran examples who just follow the wrong religion but otherwise are examplary?

First, I think that it's worth noting that it's white women, specifically, that make up most of the women in question. At last check, most white women voted for Trump/the GOP. Almost no black women voted for Trump/the GOP.

To borrow from a reddit dealing with this question -

I'm a white woman who grew up around the conservative south, specifically Mississippi. I might have some insight. It's cultural and religious reasons. It's ingrained into us since we were little. Religion is so enmeshed down there that there is barely separate of church and state. That goes for cultural beliefs too. You cannot do anything taboo and voting democratic means you might be a devil. You cannot be a voice singing a different tune, you will shamed and shunned. I lost many friends when they found out I'm a Democrat.

I can relate to this. As a white woman who grew up in a conservative Christian family, in a conservative small town, I became the black sheep in my family when I left the church in my early 20s and they discovered I did not hold their conservative views. My siblings and parents were less judgmental but my younger cousins were discouraged from speaking having anything other than very surface conversations with them.

Another white woman who grew up in Mississippi here. I’m only in my 20s, but nearly every relative I have essentially uses the word democrat as an insult and I rarely go to visit anymore because they basically just try to goad me into arguing my own rights with them and then all gang up on me and yell. Even my female relatives. It really is the culture of things. I was so afraid of going to hell that I convinced myself I was religious until I was in college. And even then I had a hard time coping with the thought that I might be atheist. The same goes for voting. By the time I was of voting age, I was still convinced that democrat was a dirty word and that the only real good for the country was the GOP.

Speaking as someone who was raised with conservative christian values... It's indocrination and echo chambers, 100%.

I'm Canadian, but my first 3 electons voting I voted conservative because that's what my family and church communities thought was right. Even the topic of abortion, I was raised to believe that it was about "the babies!" and "what kind of monster doesn't care about these poor children?". These communities have very effective, tried-and-true strategies to ensure that women fall in line.

I've since broken the chains of my indoctination, but I will say that it is an EXTREMELY difficult process. It's alienating and often depressing... in all honestly, losing your faith is not unlike losing a loved one (except in this case, you have a huge group of people from your past saying "he's not dead, just believe"). It is actually a very difficult and lonely road to walk for a lot of different reasons.

As the risk of sounding self-righteous, I think one of the main reasons most women (and this also applies to men) in these circumstances don't challenge the status-quo is because they genuinely cannot afford to be alienated from their community, or in a lot of cases they may just be too weak-minded.

I totally get how the lack of logic among these conservative types can be baffling from the outside, but people seriously underestimate the effacacy of christian brainwashing.

My mom votes republican, yet preaches "of any of my kids were gay, I'd love them no matter what!" And "no one should tell anyone what to do with their bodies!" She voted for Oz. She is a capitalist who likes money and wants to make sure she has ot and it is not taxed. I have no idea how much she makes. For her, she thinks she will get more money and her money will be safer red. It is ass backwards and I am grateful I am not like her. She is a boomer, boomers only care for themselves and capitalism.

I think it’s because many stay at home moms feel that their husbands are their life line. The Republicans have been fighting culture wars for years and convincing people that voting for democratic candidates is voting against white men. Because these women are deriving their status and way of living through their husbands they feel like voting in his best interest is voting in their best interest. Plus many white women are very religious and have been taught to think that abortion is murder and their churches convince them that that is the only issue they should care about.

More could be said, but does that help you understand?

 

[cosmicaug]

I pity the American people. One of your political parties is rapidly pushing for a theocracy and is cheered on all the way by the MAGA crowd.

Seriously, judges using the bible rather than democratically determined laws and actual science? And there are those that vote for this?
Not to mention, how is it possible that women vote for the GOP, do they WANT to go back to being objects owned by their parents? Are the Taliban and Iran examples who just follow the wrong religion but otherwise are examplary?

Something, something about the Nile River in Egypt....

 

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Do you believe the US is, or should be, a theocracy?

Parts of it unquestionably are.

I believe everyone but the mother carrying the baby should stfu until the foetus reaches viability at around 28 weeks.

Once again, that doesn't answer the **** question. You are certainly expending a lot of energy avoiding doing so.

I wasn't avoiding the question; I didn't think it wasn't worth answering, but if you insist: no.

It was a perfectly reasonable question considering the discussion:

So the Alabama Supreme Court has now ruled that frozen embryos are children under Alabama law.

Isn't that self-evident if life begins at conception?

Anything that isn't dead is alive but being 'alive' does not make it a child. What do a child and a blastocyst or zygote have in common except for being "not dead"?
Should a person who is brain dead but whose body is still alive be kept on ventilators indefinitely because they are technically still 'alive'? In that case, I could be charged with murder as I was the one who made the decision to take my MIL off life support.

Was the highlighted question also not worth answering?

 

[Aridas]

Something, something about the Nile River in Egypt....

Ugh.

As I've observed elsewhere, the Republican Party is propped up with alternative worldviews created and supported by psychological manipulation, rather than reality.

 

[The Atheist]

More from the can of worms:
Alabama embryo ruling may have devastating effect on cancer patients

Another thought occurred to me.

Foetal tissue use in medicine must be in dire danger.

Once again, that doesn't answer the **** question. You are certainly expending a lot of energy avoiding doing so.

This is one of the funnier exchanges I've had and I'm struggling to see what you want and why you can't understand simple answers.

You asked if America is a theocracy and I said parts of it are. There's no ambiguity in that answer and it answers your question entirely. Even better, if Trump is somehow returned to the White House, it will be a full theocracy in days.

Was the highlighted question also not worth answering?

100%.

If the court has ruled that life begins at conception, then the question is moot. In the eyes of the law they are one and the same.

 

[thaiboxerken]

You know just when I begin to think Republicans couldn't make any more batcrap crazy arguments, I read posts like this. "abortion enthusiasts"???

As if people have abortions for sport. Could an argument possibly be more disingenuous?

Why?

It is because they want to distract from the fact that they are taking peoples' freedoms away. They try to paint the pro-choice movement as people wanting to force women to have abortions. The reality is that they are the ones forcing choices upon women.

 

[thaiboxerken]

It's all headed in the direction of "every sperm is sacred".

I don't think it'll ever go this way because this would infringe on men's freedoms. Ovaries/ovum will be "sacred" though....

 

[thaiboxerken]

If the court has ruled that life begins at conception, then the question is moot. In the eyes of the law they are one and the same.

I doubt it, I'm sure people with zygotes in storage will not be eligible to receive child tax credits.

 

[The Atheist]

I doubt it, I'm sure people with zygotes in storage will not be eligible to receive child tax credits.

Do pregnant women receive them?

If not, that one is moot as well.

 

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Once again, that doesn't answer the **** question. You are certainly expending a lot of energy avoiding doing so.

This is one of the funnier exchanges I've had and I'm struggling to see what you want and why you can't understand simple answers.

Stop with the excuses.

You asked if America is a theocracy and I said parts of it are. [/HILITE]There's no ambiguity in that answer and it answers your question entirely.[/HILITE]

I asked "As previously noted, countries where laws are based on religious beliefs are theocracies. Do you believe the US is, or should be, a theocracy?"

No, it doesn't. I asked if you believe the US, not parts of it, is a theocracy or should be. The simple answer is: "No: the US is a democratic republic and its laws are not based on religious beliefs. If Congress passed laws based on religion, it would violate the First Amendment."
Even Utah, founded by and dominated by Mormons, is not a theocracy. Your response was nothing more than flippancy.

There...does that help?

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Was the highlighted question also not worth answering?

100%.

If the court has ruled that life begins at conception, then the question is moot. In the eyes of the law they are one and the same.

That highlighted question was:

Anything that isn't dead is alive but being 'alive' does not make it a child. What do a child and a blastocyst or zygote have in common except for being "not dead"?

Again, your response does not answer what I asked you. I didn't ask you when life began. I asked what a CHILD has in common with a blastocyst or zygote and specifically mentioned besides being "not dead".

Getting a straight answer out of you is like pulling teeth.

 

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I doubt it, I'm sure people with zygotes in storage will not be eligible to receive child tax credits.

Do pregnant women receive them?

If not, that one is moot as well.

Nor so far. But that was before AL declared a frozen zygote a "child". Since those frozen "children" require storage that must be paid for in order to "live", then isn't that "child support" for which tax credit is given?
As said, this ruling opens up a can of worms.

 

[cosmicaug]

Nor so far. But that was before AL declared a frozen zygote a "child". Since those frozen "children" require storage that must be paid for in order to "live", then isn't that "child support" for which tax credit is given?
As said, this ruling opens up a can of worms.

I can't see a flaw with that logic.

 

[The Atheist]

I asked "As previously noted, countries where laws are based on religious beliefs are theocracies. Do you believe the US is, or should be, a theocracy?"

And I repeat, some parts of it are. Overall, it isn't, but with an evangelical conservative majority in SCOTUS it could well be in the near future.

Should it be is a silly question. Clearly not.

Even Utah, founded by and dominated by Mormons, is not a theocracy. Your response was nothing more than flippancy.

There...does that help?

Certainly helped me have a good laugh. The thread is about biblical-based anti-abortion and anti-women legislation. That is being enacted through various states, and that's the very epitome of theocratic rule.

Again, your response does not answer what I asked you. I didn't ask you when life began. I asked what a CHILD has in common with a blastocyst or zygote and specifically mentioned besides being "not dead". /QUOTE]

DNA.