• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Since when was it in the hands of the Swedish Prosecutor ...

Since when was *what* in the hands of the Swedish prosecutor?

To decide to prosecute or not prosecute someone for potential crimes within their jurisdiction, sure. To tell someone else to produce or not produce a report? I don't think so. What is it that you imagine the Swedish prosecutor to be attempting to do?
 
Luck...? Whilst it is useful to understand the general reasons for accidents, reading the above, anyone would think the sudden drowning of up to a thousand people within half an hour was an everyday occurence.
Only if they had an incomplete understanding of the English language. Do you really think that:
You might get away with operating a vessel in waters it was never designed to operate in, in bad weather, when poorly maintained, and in an unbalanced trim condition, straight into oncoming wind and waves, at full speed, with you and your crew slacking off and disregarding warning signs, if you were very lucky.
describes an everyday state of affairs?
 
Jutta Rabe, Harri Ruotsalainen, Margus Kurm and Henrik Evertsson, et al, are hardly 'armchair detectives'.

You. I'm talking about you. You're the armchair detective, and you're worse than useless. You have no idea what you're talking about, yet you seem to think everyone should listen to you.

A virtual thank you to these guys and all those who have been determined to bring out into the open the truth of what happened to the M/V Estonia.

No. I know far more about investigating transportation accidents than all those people put together. They're not tireless soldiers looking for the truth. They're conspiracy theorists, and we've shown at length in this thread why they're wrong.
 
...reading the above, anyone would think the sudden drowning of up to a thousand people within half an hour was an everyday occurence.

No one is claiming that. However, from my perspective as a trained and licensed professional with actual experience in forensic engineering, I can say it's an accurate description of the mindset that underlies the vast majority of transportation accidents.

No matter how much you try to Vixensplain my profession to me, your grasping at any and every conspiracy theory is not a substitute for knowing how things actually work.
 
You are not even familiar with Rabe. You did a 'cock of the walk' thing and declared her 'an insane crank' without knowing anything about her and as if you are the arbiter.

You were asked and invited to defend Rabe with facts. The best you could come up with was a string of assumptions that she somehow "must" have done her job and been a good journalist, and a secondary conspiracy theory of your own for why she didn't provide evidence for her conspiracy theory that the captain was shot in the head.

So now that your unhinged defense of Rabe is back on the table, please tell us how we're supposed to believe you're as even-handed and fair-minded as you claim when you're clearly shilling for conspiracy authors who don't provide evidence for their claims.

As for whether we can evaluate Rabe, the answer is yes. We're quite capable of recognizing tabloid tactics such as relying on unnamed sources for sensational claims.
 
You were asked and invited to defend Rabe with facts. The best you could come up with was a string of assumptions that she somehow "must" have done her job and been a good journalist, and a secondary conspiracy theory of your own for why she didn't provide evidence for her conspiracy theory that the captain was shot in the head.

So now that your unhinged defense of Rabe is back on the table, please tell us how we're supposed to believe you're as even-handed and fair-minded as you claim when you're clearly shilling for conspiracy authors who don't provide evidence for their claims.

As for whether we can evaluate Rabe, the answer is yes. We're quite capable of recognizing tabloid tactics such as relying on unnamed sources for sensational claims.

Indeed, the desperate attempts to deflect are so obvious it's painful.

I ask for support of Rabe and her nonsense and instead get accused of never having heard of her and being a meanie for no reason. It's farcical, particularly considering everyone in this argument is ostensibly an adult.
 
The book was nothing at all to do with 'pulp fiction' it was a descriptive narrative...

Including uncorroborated claims of conspiracy.

...together with the laboratory reports , graphs and tables of international metallurgy labs, and a reproduction of a report written by naval explosions expert, Brian Braidwood and naval expert Michael Fellowes.

Asked and answered. When last we left this story, you were on the hook to produce photographs of the key pages confirming your claim that the book includes the full forensic reports, not just the cherry-picked summaries available from other sources.

Anyone can staple lab reports to a bad spy novel and sell it to an unsuspecting audience.

How do you work out you have more experience of sailing than specifically, myself?

In my case, by reading what you say.
 
I ask for support of Rabe and her nonsense and instead get accused of never having heard of her and being a meanie for no reason. It's farcical, particularly considering everyone in this argument is ostensibly an adult.

Ironically we usually know more about her sources than she does. But once having relied on them, she's in a dilemma. She won't let them go and she can't defend them. This is why armchair detectives are worse than useless.
 
Ironically we usually know more about her sources than she does. But once having relied on them, she's in a dilemma. She won't let them go and she can't defend them. This is why armchair detectives are worse than useless.

Indeed, including having had actual conversations with at least one of them, but when their lack of expertise is brought up it's somehow a personal matter, as if that makes any sense whatsoever.

It's not a personality clash to point out when someone is utterly incompetent.
 
Do you really think that [operational deviance] describes an everyday state of affairs?

In a sense, it does. Shipping accidents including foundering happen literally every day. When they do, we almost always find that the vessels have been operated complacently in one way or another that chronically invades the safety margin. There's rarely any difference in perceived safety between operating something well outside the safety margin and operating well within it. That's the danger.

When we studied non-passenger shipping operations for the 20th century, we found that shipping early in the century incurred a certain accident rate. We expected that the explosion in navigation, communication, and electronic controls in the mid-to-late 20th century would have reduced the accident rate—that was the intent, anyway. What we found was that the accident rated remained unchanged. The additional margin provided by advancements in engineering was being used to increase production efficiency.

For example, ships naturally slow down when they enter hazard areas because they can't know precisely where they are and precisely where the hazards are. Going slow increases their capacity to avoid danger. But it delays their arrival; this is not favorable. With the ability to know their own position more precisely, and the ability to locate and avoid hazards, ships can go much faster, but with more at stake now if they're somehow wrong. Rather than reduce the effect of hazard and decrease the accident rate, the industry chose to accept the same accident rate in exchange for greater production efficiency. This is because production metrics generally are incremental.

The normalization of risk is a prong in the same fork as the normalization of deviance. The normalization of risk says, "This thing is always this dangerous, no matter what we do." We then apply a somewhat amoral calculation to what we think our responsibilities are. Driving on the motorway incurs a certain inevitable risk, we say. Oh, we have airbags now? That means I can drive a little faster while maintaining the same risk I demonstrated I could tolerate before airbags. When we say we want safety at all costs, we deceive ourselves. The receipts show we generally emphasize safety only temporarily in the wake of a prominent accident, whereafter the tolerance of risk drops back down to an invariant baseline.

The normalization of deviance says, "I didn't wreck my car today, so I must be driving safely." Or conversely, "I know the Check Engine light is on, but my car seems to be running fine so it can't be a big deal." And we press on. A month later we're standing by the side of the road, bonnet up, cursing what "suddenly" has happened to us.

P2015 on my car is an indication that a certain control is malfunctioning. The control enhances efficiency, but is not related to safety. The root cause, however, was rodents chewing on the vacuum lines the control relies upon for power. Astutely you should be wondering about what else the rodents are chewing on, so that you don't suddenly lose hydraulic pressure or coolant through chewed-upon weak spots in those similarly tasty rubber hoses: spots that suddenly burst when you're going 100 km/h down the freeway. Simply saying de minimis, "Well, my car runs fine if a little less efficiently," is a perfectly typical normalization of deviance that is an absolute disaster when applied to high-risk technology.

We fail on a daily basis to note how lucky we are because the safety margin is intentionally nonlinear and nonincremental, and our default is de minimis thinking. That's a fancy way of saying what I said above: the only observation that differs across the boundary of the safety margin is often the benign instrumentation that tells us we've crossed it. There may be other signs, such as having to hammer home the bolts that hold key components in place. But production pressure favors de minimis Band-Aid remedies: the bolt is in the right place now, so we must be safe, right? It favors exceptionalist thinking :— my ship won't sink, will it? My plane won't crash, will it? That misalignment was trying to tell us a story, just like the vacuum-hose breach was trying to tell us a story. Being disinterested in the story so long as the car runs or the visor closes or the plane can land safely with a door plug missing is usually attractive, but rarely wise.
 
You do know translations and summaries exist right? It reads like it. Its a badly thought out pulp spy novel, not serious journalism.
It advances conspiracy theories without evidence and Braidwood never saw the site, just the pictures. We went over this.

I answered this. Because I don't believe your stories about yourself. You routinely lie to make yourself seem more important than you are and routinely lie about what others say. Again, remember the IRA farce or the incident with the book I own?

What 'incident with the book [you] own'? It is clearly very important to you to disparage me at every turn. That reflects your insecurity. It is not for me to give your slurs the dignity of a response.

Likewise, in these parts, we do the Jante law here. We are not impressed by showing off, so your typically British sport of oneupmanship - i.e., your 'humble brag' (= pretending you are talking about me) of having a sailing certificate and sailing 'extensively' - doesn't impress and likewise, I shall not be 'putting you in your place' nor arousing good old British envy, by giving that comment the dignity of a response, either.

It matters not a jot that you think Rabe reads like a pulp spy novel, that is your prerogative - I do not believe for a minute you have read her book! - but your claim that that she is 'an insane crank' is just a spurious insult of the playground variety, that doesn't even reach the level of a logical fallacy.
 
This was all explained from the link I posted from the Swedish Prosecutor.

The Prosecutors have investigated the (reopened) legal case, and based on the information they have received from the combined Estonian/Swedish ongoing accident investigation, they have decided that there is no case to drive from the legal perspective.

The investigation performed by the Estonian Safety investigation Bureau together with the Swedish Accident Investigation Authority is still ongoing.

That is dated November 2023. The Swedish prosecutor refers to conclusions.
 
Only if they had an incomplete understanding of the English language. Do you really think that:

describes an everyday state of affairs?

Sweeping generalisations. My personal pet hate is the debating technique of the 'would, could, should' variety, where everything has an alternative explanation and everything can be rationalized so there is no problem to be solved at all. You can just shrug your shoulders and say, 'So what?' <shrug>. It's the '**** Happens' School of Thought and not far-removed from the 'What-If' philosophers of our world. It might work if this topic, 'The Sinking of the Estonia' were about abstract religious, philosophical, paranormal or conspiracy theories. But it is not, it is a simple current affairs, factual, news story. Nothing to do with whether you 'believe in it' or not.
 
You. I'm talking about you. You're the armchair detective, and you're worse than useless. You have no idea what you're talking about, yet you seem to think everyone should listen to you.



No. I know far more about investigating transportation accidents than all those people put together. They're not tireless soldiers looking for the truth. They're conspiracy theorists, and we've shown at length in this thread why they're wrong.

Well, that is good, as it shouldn't be me that is the topic.
 
It is clearly very important to you to disparage me at every turn. That reflects your insecurity.

No, it's important to challenge your claims where appropriate. In this case we note the paucity of substance in the source and question your reliance on it. You have a history of using unreliable sources that you do not vet and cannot understand. Your reluctance to participate in an evaluation of your sources—and rely instead on evasion and bullying—reflects your insecurity.

It matters not a jot that you think Rabe reads like a pulp spy novel, that is your prerogative

It matters quite a bit when the source is being advanced as factual and well-researched, and therefore worthy of attention.

I do not believe for a minute you have read her book! - but your claim that that she is 'an insane crank' is just a spurious insult of the playground variety, that doesn't even reach the level of a logical fallacy.

You were invited to show where she presented corroboration for the claims we have lately heard from her. You were unable to do so; you just assumed she did her homework, and then subsequently denied having made the assumption. You claim to be even-handed and fair-minded, but you are clearly shilling for a conspiracy theorist.

When we present reasons why a certain source cannot be considered authoritative or reliable, your blustery insistence that we must do so anyway is comical.
 
No one is claiming that. However, from my perspective as a trained and licensed professional with actual experience in forensic engineering, I can say it's an accurate description of the mindset that underlies the vast majority of transportation accidents.

No matter how much you try to Vixensplain my profession to me, your grasping at any and every conspiracy theory is not a substitute for knowing how things actually work.

Rationalization doesn't explain THIS accident. It is no good rationalizing it by saying, 'Oh, it must have been the wind, or a strong wave, or the crew were negligent or it was going too fast...**** happens! <shrug> ...next!'

That sort of answer might satisfy the intellectually lazy or the average incurious person more interested in other things but there people who ARE interested in the actual facts and not in some comforting pet formula as to 'why accidents happen'.
 
Well, that is good, as it shouldn't be me that is the topic.

You are the only topic.

The actual issues regarding the sinking of MS Estonia have been discussed multiple times at length and resolved to everyone's satisfaction but yours. The only question that remains is why you keep rehashing the same debunked nonsense in this epic thread. The answer is that you want attention. You seem to enjoy the role of armchair detective and want to relive it time and again, regardless of whether any new information or insight is achieved.

You owe us an explanation of why you keep raising the same questions we've answered over and over. There is no genuine controversy. You're not merely interested in the world around you, otherwise you'd take the opportunity to actually learn something about it. Convince us you deserve more attention that we would otherwise give to any other self-important, self-proclaimed expert.
 

Back
Top Bottom